Would be fascinated to know: How many new Leica MP film bodies are sold, worldwide, each day?

Ko.Fe. said:

How it is not? Who else makes new 135 film format high quality cameras?
Nikon with one camera. This is it.
Without new cameras made, it is Mad Max.

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The true yardstick measure of the film industry is not measured by the number of new film camera bodies being sold but by the number of rolls of film being sold.

Thisis basic industrial knowledge: The more film being sold, the more cameras will be made. Not vice-versa.

And Leica is by no means a yardstick. Basicaly Leica could be selling new film bodies in a market without film, as heirloom instruments. This is not a joke!

I don't know, for me it seems important that new cameras are being produced, even if the used market is full. Take Impossible project / Polaroid --> even with supersaturated used market new cameras are being designed and produced, this is the signal that the things are going in a good direction, and in my opinion, this gives also a push in film sales.

film_man said:

This is it, isn't? It doesn't matter what group you find yourself in, there will always be people that need to subdivide it to make themselves feel better. Digital vs analog. Choose analog. 35mm vs 120 vs large format? Choose 35mm. Rangefinders vs SLRs. Pick one. Then get into the whole brand thing. Then get into the whole old vs new. Or the made in Japan vs Germany vs Canada vs whatever else.

Mate, you talk about rich people, lining people's pockets then here you are discussing a Hy6 and large format. Remind us how much a Hy6 is. How much money is it for a sheet of film again? I'm sure the profits from every new Nikon F6 sold go for the Nikon help the homeless charity.

Same stuff with film, on one hand people complaining Fuji is increasing prices and discontinuing products then talking down Cinestill and Lomo for daring to make new products that don't conform to their purist views of the world.

What a load of rubbish.

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I would argue it's less about the actual cost of the item vs the relative cost of the item. The Hy6 is expensive but of course it is. It's the most advanced medium format camera ever made and oh by the way it's also a digital camera. I can't imagine how many they make a year but I'm guessing it's in the dozens. Large format equipment on the other hand is cheap! Between Chamonix and Intrepid you can get a pretty decent field camera for less than the cost of a Prosumer SLR. Boxes of Ilford 4x5 film are no big expense either. 8x10 can hurt a bit more, especially in color, but in 8x10 you don't really burn though exposures like you do with roll film to get a great shot. A box of 25 sheets might yield a 60% keeper rate once you know what you're doing. Don't get me started on the cost of the lenses... Baring the exotic stuff, a Fujinon anything is basically a steal, and world class.

So by the standards of what you might expect something to cost the Hy6 and F6 are in line with norms, and large format stuff is super cheap. Leica too is in line with it's own norms. But of course they are it's own norms. I've always thought the line that "well it's Leica so you can't talk about prices because it's always expensive" is a load of crap. They charge what they do for the same reason luxury watch companies charge what they do. Because to a great extent of their users the price is the point.

AgX said:

True, but a Hy6 Mod 2s is with 10.000€ again in the elitist range, furthermore it is a hybrid camera (film and sensor backs available) and thus not the best example,

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500C/Ms can take digital backs too, as can H series hasselblads, I don't think that invalidates the existence for the film backs. Used prices on the Hy6 system make it VERY attractive. I picked up mine on consignment for a relative steal, same with my lenses. I've also bought a few new accessories and paid the factory to do some light repairs a couple times. I had a lens that needed an AF repair (80/2.8), and my 6x6 insert needed adjustment under warranty. If you're serious about shooting a lot of 6x6, and if you're like me and have a little trouble manually focusing, the Hy6 is worth it. The lenses are sublime, you can largely trust the meter, it's very well thought out. Also, Eric at Rollei dot US was fairly recently selling a batch of new 6008AFs for really attractive prices. I believe a kit with an 80mm was under $3k. If you're better at manually focusing the 600x series is equally amazing.

Ko.Fe. said:

How it is not? Who else makes new 135 film format high quality cameras?
Nikon with one camera. This is it.
Without new cameras made, it is Mad Max.

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This is exactly why I said Leica should commit to keeping all existing Ms running in perpetuity. Not for free of course, not saying that. But there are simply enough bodies to sustain the market, and adding more simply creates waste. Plus it's not exactly "mad max". There are very reputable repair people out there even now who are doing amazing work. Given the craftsmanship of an earlier M, they will last as long as you want them to if they're serviced and not run over by a tank. Also my example of Magicflex. The guy makes Rollei TLRs new again, it's amazing. Restoration can be a very good thing.

What I wanted to say is, that we do not know if the Hy6 still would be offered if no sensor back would be available.

AgX said:

What I wanted to say is, that we do not know if the Hy6 still would be offered if no sensor back would be available.

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From a few conversations I had with the US Rollei distributor they started making the earlier versions of the camera thinking that eventually it would be all digital, but over time were surprised to learn how many of their users wanted it for film. For a long time you could really only get the 645 back and inserts, but eventually they 'finally' introduced the 6060 back, and it's still a bit rare. The way it is today, I don't think there are any digital backs being made for it. You may still be able to order a Credo back but I sort of doubt it. Phase bought Leaf, and never cared much about the Credo backs. Now MFD is a whole new world of mirrorless cameras, and Phase is still trying to convince people their backs are worth $50k. I think they're going to be targeting institutions more than studios now. When it comes down to it, the Hy6 is a camera platform, it does remarkably well whether you're shooting film or digital. I don't know how much longer their be able to sustain support, but I hope a long enough time for me to accumulate some back up bodies and other accessories. This camera does remarkable things to a sheet of fine grain film.

NB23 said:

The true yardstick measure of the film industry is not measured by the number of new film camera bodies being sold but by the number of rolls of film being sold.

Thisis basic industrial knowledge: The more film being sold, the more cameras will be made. Not vice-versa.

And Leica is by no means a yardstick. Basicaly Leica could be selling new film bodies in a market without film, as heirloom instruments. This is not a joke!

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“Basic industrial knowledge”? I must have missed yours credentials

Film is just one part. You can’t use it without cameras. How many Canon film EOS SLRs could be repaired now? Soon to be None, if not already. Because once manufacturing of new cameras stopped, no parts, no service, no technicians. And no cameras to expose films.
Minolta, Konica, Pentax film cameras - same.
You might be OK with Mad Max “technology”, but for me new Leica made means parts to be available and repair technicians to exist. At least in Wetzlar.
We have no Leica trained technicians left in Canada, btw. Now if M needs new curtains it is USA with only few choices available and at least two of them aren’t something I want to deal with.

You are right about repair technicians, but with 1000 samples sold a year, how many technicians Leica needs to service them compared to the 10,000's already existing?
Does making new film Leicas mean that spares for old models are made? I inquired in this thread about the spare parts situation for Leicas. No answer...
Linhof was mentioned. But they lack some essential spare parts though still are busy with manufacturing film cameras.

Dali said:

Selling 5 new cameras a day is not what I call supporting film photography... Camera makers are not supporting film photography because they don't want to invest in an non-existing market when they still can make money with digital.

If tomorrow Leica collapses, there won't be any ripple effect in the film photography world. Imagine the same with Ilford, Kodak or Fuji; it shall tell you what Leica really represents today (NIL).

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Sorry, I have no means to offend you with the following.

What if I don’t care about film, but film cameras?
Why most of the photo books I have are from Leica taken negatives. Why phographers I care for choice was Leica. Because it was film? No, same photographer are using digital Leica now and some still prefer film, but Leica film cameras only.
I’m also not interested in scavenging of parts from old cameras to make one old camera works.
With Leica making new cameras, I have Leica run service for old film M.
How many other film brand cameras have this service now?
Sorry, but not me nor my kids are on the level - I will expose film in any camera just because it is film. Nor HCB and GW were willing just to expose film just on something. Not Jane Bown, not Yosuf Karsh.

Ko.Fe. said:

Sorry, I have no means to offend you with the following.

What if I don’t care about film, but film cameras?
Why most of the photo books I have are from Leica taken negatives.

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Definitely one of the weirder statements on the internet today...

AgX said:

You are right about repair technicians, but with 1000 samples sold a year, how many technicians Leica needs to service them compared to the 10,000's already existing?
Does making new film Leicas mean that spares for old models are made? I inquired in this thread about the spare parts situation for Leicas. No answer...
Linhof was mentioned. But they lack some essential spare parts though still are busy with manufacturing film cameras.

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It is was sometime ago. Leica decided not to sell parts for independent, Leica trained technicians. Those who has individual Leica seals.
Then it was reverted.
My M4-2 was repaired with new Leica part because of it. In 2016-2017.
But it is impossible to have all of the old cameras, lenses parts to be available.
Leica has no parts for M6 TTL metering and no plastic parts for v4 ELC Crons. For example.

Ko.Fe. said:

Sorry, I have no means to offend you with the following.

What if I don’t care about film, but film cameras?
Why most of the photo books I have are from Leica taken negatives. Why phographers I care for choice was Leica. Because it was film? No, same photographer are using digital Leica now and some still prefer film, but Leica film cameras only.
I’m also not interested in scavenging of parts from old cameras to make one old camera works.
With Leica making new cameras, I have Leica run service for old film M.
How many other film brand cameras have this service now?
Sorry, but not me nor my kids are on the level - I will expose film in any camera just because it is film. Nor HCB and GW were willing just to expose film just on something. Not Jane Bown, not Yosuf Karsh.

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If you don't care about film, you are not a film user so there no point for you to defend film photography.

Photo books have nothing to do with the future of film photography. It is pretty easy to understand.

No one is asking you to scavange part of cameras...

Who is talking about HCB or GW here? What is the point in this conversation???? Please grow up and quit names dropping when it does a disservice to your argumentation.

Ko.Fe. said:

“Basic industrial knowledge”? I must have missed yours credentials

Film is just one part. You can’t use it without cameras. How many Canon film EOS SLRs could be repaired now? Soon to be None, if not already. Because once manufacturing of new cameras stopped, no parts, no service, no technicians. And no cameras to expose films.
Minolta, Konica, Pentax film cameras - same.
You might be OK with Mad Max “technology”, but for me new Leica made means parts to be available and repair technicians to exist. At least in Wetzlar.
We have no Leica trained technicians left in Canada, btw. Now if M needs new curtains it is USA with only few choices available and at least two of them aren’t something I want to deal with.

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First, film demand. Then camera makers will follow. Not the opposite.
Note: they might follow by deciding not to participate. This could be a valid response.

Credentials? What do I have to prove to you? My diploma is in a box somewhere around the house. But I’m sure your Mister Bean investigating methods could maybe help you in finding additional informations on my account. But maybe not.

AgX said:

You are right about repair technicians, but with 1000 samples sold a year, how many technicians Leica needs to service them compared to the 10,000's already existing?
Does making new film Leicas mean that spares for old models are made? I inquired in this thread about the spare parts situation for Leicas. No answer...
Linhof was mentioned. But they lack some essential spare parts though still are busy with manufacturing film cameras.

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WRT spare parts....
the main circuit board in my M6 was replaced with “a newer model” since the boards were widely reported to be unobtaium, I assume it was replaced with one for the MP

Speculation.

Dali said:

If you don't care about film, you are not a film user so there no point for you to defend film photography.

Photo books have nothing to do with the future of film photography. It is pretty easy to understand.

No one is asking you to scavange part of cameras...

Who is talking about HCB or GW here? What is the point in this conversation???? Please grow up and quit names dropping when it does a disservice to your argumentation.

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I was not talking to you? Wasn’t I. By your comment it shows here is no point to have any conversation with you. Because you didn’t understand anything I has written

NB23 said:

First, film demand. Then camera makers will follow. Not the opposite.
Note: they might follow by deciding not to participate. This could be a valid response.

Credentials? What do I have to prove to you? My diploma is in a box somewhere around the house. But I’m sure your Mister Bean investigating methods could maybe help you in finding additional informations on my account. But maybe not.

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For sure, film demand now is the key factor. As the industry expert would you agree with me what it isn’t much industry anymore but niche market?

BradS said:

WRT spare parts....
the main circuit board in my M6 was replaced with “a newer model” since the boards were widely reported to be unobtaium, I assume it was replaced with one for the MP

Speculation.

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Interesting, Why couldn’t Leica do the same for M6 TTL?

I bought a new in box M6ttl 0.85 chrome from a dealer in Japan a couple years ago. He had ten, identical cameras, they may have been sequential s/n for all I know. It's the exact model I was looking for. I got a decent deal, I think it was 2500 bucks. I sold a black chrome model a couple years before that, I didn't like the. 72 finder.
I found a mint 6 bit 50mm chrome Summicron, made out of brass for chrome plating, significantly heavier than the black Summicron that went with the black body.
I love that outfit, but I use medium format rangefinder more. Still the Leica is so stealthy. Really a wonderful piece of mechanical perfection.

Ko.Fe. said:

I was not talking to you? Wasn’t I. By your comment it shows here is no point to have any conversation with you. Because you didn’t understand anything I has written

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See your post #83 making reference to MY post.
Obviously, you don't know anymore who you are talking to.
Take your fills and get some rest.

Chan Tran said:

There must be at least one in Peking and one in Tokyo.

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Plus Singapore and, or course, Hong Kong. (And Shanghai, Paris, Moscow, Los Angeles?)

David Lyga said:

Plus Singapore and, or course, Hong Kong. (And Shanghai, Paris, Moscow, Los Angeles?)

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I don't think the Russians go for Leica. I know the Chinese and Japanese love them. Not sure about the French either.

NortheastPhotographic said:

... Also my example of Magicflex. The guy makes Rollei TLRs new again, it's amazing. Restoration can be a very good thing.

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Hey thanks for the mention re Magicflex. Very nice. An opportunity ... 8 bladed 2.8C

I have no idea about how many new Leica MP film bodies are sold, worldwide, each day. What I can say is the film resurgence is a good thing. Now if we all shoot and after a day or insert period of time (two) of shooting, take the sd card out to view on a laptop, tablet, dare I say it mobile device ... it may appear a film like experience. Besides think about the battery usage - more on shooting less on viewing.

We all should have faith in our respective exposure methods which does not require one to reach for the safety of the rear LCD. We shoot regardless of film or digital.

Just a thought.

I wonder how many Leica’s overall, of all ages and models, change hands daily? How many used Leicas are currently at this moment aboard aircraft crossing oceans to eager waiting hands? ••••••• I do believe the superiority of the design and careful construction will ensure an adequate camera supply will remain forever. Film itself though, it’s continued existence, is purely up to commercial movie production usage. We here with our 5’ strips do little. Let movie producers continue to use film, Let more BW movies be made......then we will have a film supply.

NB23 said:

I’m sorry for being pedantic. Nobody throws a roll of film in the garbage after exposing it.

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Isn't that the concept of "disposable camera" ??

That is why the Americans chose a somewhat better name for it than we Germans.

etn said:

Isn't that the concept of "disposable camera" ??

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No. The film is developed, not thrown out and the cameras are not disposed, they are recycled.