Working with unruly film

mehguy · Nov 17, 2021

How do you deal with film that isn't curled the "right way" (emulsion side in) because it was in the camera for so long and ends up being curled in the opposite direction (emulsion side out)? I've tried to load them onto Paterson reels and stainless and it always ends in the emulsion getting scratched and the film never feel like it's being loaded properly.

How do you deal with these issues and other unruly film problems?

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

mehguy said:
How do you deal with film that isn't curled the "right way" (emulsion side in) because it was in the camera for so long and ends up being curled in the opposite direction (emulsion side out)? I've tried to load them onto Paterson reels and stainless and it always ends in the emulsion getting scratched and the film never feel like it's being loaded properly.

How do you deal with these issues and other unruly film problems?

This is the solution I resorted to in such cases.
- Chinese development tank Happy Swan brand,,
It is said that it is basically an imitation of the Russian tank brand (The Graceful Swan). Maybe it's a joke, I don't know.

In general, whatever the case,
Summary of the case,, This tank does not have a reel.
I consider this tank a genius design because it solves a major problem with that strong flexible plastic tape at the same time, and it forces the film to bend along the principle of a zonborock (almost) while allowing all liquids to surround the emulsion on all sides.
This tank allows the development of a film measuring 110 mm, or even a microfilm or any size smaller than 35 mm
And I was so grateful for this tank when I used it with a roll that had its sides destroyed and torn off using a Russian Zenit camera,

This is a cheap tank, one of the Egyptian merchants brought it through the Alibaba website at a very cheap price and sold a lot of it in Egypt..

pbromaghin · Nov 17, 2021

Load it upside down. Or is it inside out? It will still get wet.

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

Sorry, it seems I didn't read your main question correctly so I wrote an inaccurate answer in the previous post.

Now that I understand your main question,
Let me tell you, I think it's the first time you've installed film with reels.
Why do you want to install the film in reverse?
- Even if the movie was upside down inside the cassette by accident or because of something.
- What is your problem with installing the film in the direction that makes the film comfortable during installation?
In the end, the liquids will reach the emulsion from the front and from the back, as the tank is completely immersed in liquids.
- This problem happened to me before, and I thought that the emulsion should be combined with the roller in the right direction, but after I re-thought for a while, it was correct for me that the liquids will age and surround the emulsion from all sides, so there is no sense that you are Insist on installing the film in the opposite direction.

Install the film in the direction you want the film to be comfortable, even if that orientation is wrong, don't worry about it.

- Do not worry about the issue of expected scratches, no scratches will occur,,
- What you are doing now with insistence on reversing the direction of the film, what you are doing is what could cause the emulsion to be stripped,
- Install the film with the reel and try as much as possible to install the film as quickly as possible, and if there is an opportunity to install the film in a place that is well ventilated or has an air fan, it will be better until you are sure that your hands will not sweat during installation, and perhaps if I wear gloves, this will be more useful.

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

pbromaghin said:
Load it upside down. Or is it inside out? It will still get wet.

This is what I expected to happen.
It seems that the film sweated and got wet due to the long installation period that was required inside the change tent..
This is actually a disaster, it happened to me once, and I thought of strange solutions until I dried the film while it was inside the changing tent.
I took a black hair dryer inside the changing tent and the power cable was extended next to my arm in a way that is difficult to explain, but you will definitely understand what I want or say.
Some air was pumped into the changing tent on the film and when I felt that the film had become dry, I immediately installed it in the reel.

pbromaghin · Nov 17, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
This is what I expected to happen.
It seems that the film sweated and got wet due to the long installation period that was required inside the change tent..
This is actually a disaster, it happened to me once, and I thought of strange solutions until I dried the film while it was inside the changing tent.
I took a black hair dryer inside the changing tent and the power cable was extended next to my arm in a way that is difficult to explain, but you will definitely understand what I want or say.
Some air was pumped into the changing tent on the film and when I felt that the film had become dry, I immediately installed it in the reel.

wow, what a mess!

cmacd123 · Nov 17, 2021

I just use my Jobo 1500 tanks. slips right in.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2021

What size film?

Sirius Glass · Nov 17, 2021

I load my tanks, either Hewes stainless steel tanks or Jobo tanks backward when the film has a bad curl problem.

mohmad khatab · Nov 17, 2021

pbromaghin said:
wow, what a mess!

Yes, you are absolutely right, it was really a complete mess.
- I had a young trained photographer who had a medical problem and was suffering from excessive sweating in the extremities.
And this medical problem caused him to not be medically accepted to join the army.
This young man made an attempt to install two films (Svema) and he sweated in the meantime and a whole roll was destroyed because of this sweating and he took his hands out of the changing tent and the color of his hands was black, and this is because that Ukrainian company does not add a protective layer to the emulsion with very sorry,
- I tried to dry the second roll with a hair dryer, and the plan succeeded, but at the same time several cadres were destroyed.
Later, that young man took a small towel with him inside the changing tent, so that if he began to feel any perspiration, he would immediately dry his hands.

mehguy · Nov 18, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
This is the solution I resorted to in such cases.
- Chinese development tank Happy Swan brand,,
It is said that it is basically an imitation of the Russian tank brand (The Graceful Swan). Maybe it's a joke, I don't know.

In general, whatever the case,
Summary of the case,, This tank does not have a reel.
I consider this tank a genius design because it solves a major problem with that strong flexible plastic tape at the same time, and it forces the film to bend along the principle of a zonborock (almost) while allowing all liquids to surround the emulsion on all sides.
This tank allows the development of a film measuring 110 mm, or even a microfilm or any size smaller than 35 mm
And I was so grateful for this tank when I used it with a roll that had its sides destroyed and torn off using a Russian Zenit camera,

This is a cheap tank, one of the Egyptian merchants brought it through the Alibaba website at a very cheap price and sold a lot of it in Egypt..

That certainly looks like an interesting developing tank. Do you know where to get one? There doesn't seem to be any mention of it anywhere else on the internet and I can't even find a photo of it apart from yours. I've checked both Alibaba and Aliexpress and I only see the Paterson-style tanks for sale. Its interesting since there doesn't seem to be any documentation of it existing anywhere, but it looks like a really cool and unique design.

pbromaghin said:
Load it upside down. Or is it inside out? It will still get wet.

I have tried that, but even if you load it the other way, it still doesn't want to cooperate.

mohmad khatab said:
Sorry, it seems I didn't read your main question correctly so I wrote an inaccurate answer in the previous post.

Now that I understand your main question,
Let me tell you, I think it's the first time you've installed film with reels.
Why do you want to install the film in reverse?
- Even if the movie was upside down inside the cassette by accident or because of something.
- What is your problem with installing the film in the direction that makes the film comfortable during installation?
In the end, the liquids will reach the emulsion from the front and from the back, as the tank is completely immersed in liquids.
- This problem happened to me before, and I thought that the emulsion should be combined with the roller in the right direction, but after I re-thought for a while, it was correct for me that the liquids will age and surround the emulsion from all sides, so there is no sense that you are Insist on installing the film in the opposite direction.

Install the film in the direction you want the film to be comfortable, even if that orientation is wrong, don't worry about it.

- Do not worry about the issue of expected scratches, no scratches will occur,,
- What you are doing now with insistence on reversing the direction of the film, what you are doing is what could cause the emulsion to be stripped,
- Install the film with the reel and try as much as possible to install the film as quickly as possible, and if there is an opportunity to install the film in a place that is well ventilated or has an air fan, it will be better until you are sure that your hands will not sweat during installation, and perhaps if I wear gloves, this will be more useful.

I've only had to load film that was curved in the opposite direction once, but I spent a good 30 minutes trying to load it onto the reels in either direction and even tried to switch over to a paterson tank. Even with the emulsion side out, and the curve in that direction, the film just did not want to load. I ended up using a Paterson, but the ratcheting motion was really unpleasant and felt like it was about to get jammed. Maybe I'm just bad, but I have another roll like this that needs to be developed and Ill see how that one goes.

MattKing said:
What size film?

35mm

MattKing · Nov 18, 2021

mehguy said:
35mm

Steel reels - either Hewes with the sprocket hooks, or the no name ones with a C shaped slot at the center that you insert the film end and then pull the film from the end near the center into the reel.
Anything like Paterson or JOBO reels that load from the outside in are less suited to reverse curl.
Load short distances at a time, and then wiggle the film to check it isn't binding.

gone · Nov 18, 2021

Ix nay on the change bag. Tool of the devil I'd say. They cost a bundle too, I bought enough of them. No more.

It took 2 minutes to tape up the bathroom window, and maybe 5 minutes to screw 2 screws into the top of the door frame, one on each side. Now I bring a blanket in there and set up a TV tray w/ a low sided box on top w/ all my developing stuff in it, along w/ a folding chair. The door is closed, and the blanket is hung over the door and tucked around the edges. That's it. Much, much better.

mehguy · Nov 18, 2021

momus said:
Ix nay on the change bag. Tool of the devil I'd say. They cost a bundle too, I bought enough of them. No more.

It took 2 minutes to tape up the bathroom window, and maybe 5 minutes to screw 2 screws into the top of the door frame, one on each side. Now I bring a blanket in there and set up a TV tray w/ a low sided box on top w/ all my developing stuff in it, along w/ a folding chair. The door is closed, and the blanket is hung over the door and tucked around the edges. That's it. Much, much better.

I do not trust my room darkening skills enough to handle film in them. Darkroom changing bags are annoying yes, but they're a necessary evil.

MattKing · Nov 19, 2021

mehguy said:
I do not trust my room darkening skills enough to handle film in them. Darkroom changing bags are annoying yes, but they're a necessary evil.

We only live in places that have at least one room that can be made dark, at night.
It is a family rule.
I certainly have loaded reels and tanks on one night, but developed the film on subsequent days.

mehguy · Nov 19, 2021

MattKing said:
We only live in places that have at least one room that can be made dark, at night.
It is a family rule.
I certainly have loaded reels and tanks on one night, but developed the film on subsequent days.

What scares me is the fact that a cameras shutter is a tiny fraction of a second, and that is enough to expose film. What will the tiniest light leak do to something that sensitive?

Nikola Dulgiarov · Nov 19, 2021

mehguy said:
What scares me is the fact that a cameras shutter is a tiny fraction of a second, and that is enough to expose film. What will the tiniest light leak do to something that sensitive?

It's fascinating how sensitive to light an accustomed eye can be in the dark. On dry days, I have noticed that handling the lid of my Keiser tank results in minute electrostatic discharges, whose shape and relative strength I can determine with relative ease, yet they must be of an infinitesimal intensity. I have detected fluorescent lamp afterglow many minutes post turning-off and the tiniest light leaks. And my vision is quite impaired generally, definitely below average. Yet, with all these sources of light I've noticed and all the locations I've processed film at, I have never had a problem with film being fogged during transfer/reeling.
Cameras take high to moderate intensities of light in fractions of a second, but a very low intensity sets one in the region of reciprocity failure, so even with the fastest emulsion, it would probably take many tens of minutes for a pinhole leak or some reflected scattered light to cause an impact. In fact, a latensification (sensitivity-enhancement post-exposure) procedure calls for a dark-green safelight filter with a 10W bulb set at a few feet away from the film for 20-30 minutes and result in only moderate increases of b+f (0.1-2 units at most). So, a darkroom that's not at its best "dark" may actually help by giving you an uncontrolled low-intensity exposure, bumping up effective film speed. All in jest, of course, but I wouldn't worry. Test with a coin and a fresh piece of fast film - leave it out in the location for 10-ish minutes (or however long you expect the film to be in the open) and then process normally.

A SS spiral is more suited for odd films (reverse curl, or thick emulsion/base, hard to thread in the JOBO/Paterson type plastic reels). I recently got a JOBO plastic reel that came from the factory with some kind of lubricant coating (PTFE grease?) It resisted being washed and I didn't notice it having any effect on processing. The several films I loaded on it did seem to load very easily, but in dry conditions, I don't get much friction/jams either way. Perhaps there is a processing-friendly grease or coating that can be used to facilitate loading. A teflon reel would be nice I guess, though the Keiser reels are themselves made from a pretty slippery and durable plastic (better than the JOBO ones IMO).

Speaking of jams, does anyone have tips/tricks for when a film does get stuck in the self-feeding reels? It's always a mess trying to unlock them to remove the film and I always get crease marks in the area where the mechanism jams.

Sirius Glass · Nov 19, 2021

mehguy said:
I do not trust my room darkening skills enough to handle film in them. Darkroom changing bags are annoying yes, but they're a necessary evil.

I have been using one of these for over ten years, https://www.freestylephoto.biz/25001-Photoflex-Changing-Room It is big enough to load 4"x5" film in Grafmatics.

Nicholas Lindan · Nov 19, 2021

I get a lot of reverse curl 35mm film - too many loaded cameras, not enough time spent taking pictures.

I just do the obvious:

Remove the film with the leader out & then let the film rest for a week or two in the cassette;
Use Hewes reels;
Load the reel straight from the cassette.

Getting the first few inches on the reel without buckling can be a PITA but after that things go smoothly.

Nicholas Lindan · Nov 19, 2021

mehguy said:
What will the tiniest light leak do to something that sensitive?

Pretty much nothing. Reciprocity failure is our friend. Under a certain intensity film goes blind - at very low light levels our eyes are more sensitive than film. The higher the film speed the higher reciprocity failure and so a little light leak that won't effect a 100 speed film won't do much to a 3200 speed film.

mohmad khatab · Nov 19, 2021

mehguy said:
That certainly looks like an interesting developing tank. Do you know where to get one? There doesn't seem to be any mention of it anywhere else on the internet and I can't even find a photo of it apart from yours. I've checked both Alibaba and Aliexpress and I only see the Paterson-style tanks for sale. Its interesting since there doesn't seem to be any documentation of it existing anywhere, but it looks like a really cool and unique design.

I do not have any other information, I do not have any documentation about the site that was selling that tank, and I am not the one who bought it from the Internet, someone in Egypt bought it for a small amount (maybe he bought five pieces) and brought them to Egypt and sold them, and I bought from One of the people who bought that tank.
What I only know is that it is a Chinese tank and it was bought online, I do not have any other information, and I do not know the name of the site from which it was purchased.
You should try hard and search the Chinese & Russian sites,

foc · Nov 20, 2021

I have often worked with film but rarely found it unruly.
On the other hand, I found some people......................

MattKing · Nov 20, 2021

foc said:
I have often worked with film but rarely found it unruly.
On the other hand, I found some people......................

You should try being a Moderator .

Nikola Dulgiarov · Nov 20, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I do not have any other information, I do not have any documentation about the site that was selling that tank, and I am not the one who bought it from the Internet, someone in Egypt bought it for a small amount (maybe he bought five pieces) and brought them to Egypt and sold them, and I bought from One of the people who bought that tank.
What I only know is that it is a Chinese tank and it was bought online, I do not have any other information, and I do not know the name of the site from which it was purchased.
You should try hard and search the Chinese & Russian sites,

They are known as Correx or apron reels. They work OKish if properly used. I've had film get stuck to the apron and developing unevenly or fragments of the apron that fell off and messed with the film. NOS is still available in Bulgaria/Eastern Bloc and is how I processed my first few films in middle school. I think their most relevant application nowadays is processing paper base films (Washi).

mohmad khatab · Nov 20, 2021

Nikola Dulgiarov said:
They are known as Correx or apron reels. They work OKish if properly used. I've had film get stuck to the apron and developing unevenly or fragments of the apron that fell off and messed with the film. NOS is still available in Bulgaria/Eastern Bloc and is how I processed my first few films in middle school. I think their most relevant application nowadays is processing paper base films (Washi).

I think our colleague ((( OP))) would be very grateful to you if you could help him to buy a tank of this category.

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