Woo Hoo! 8x10 tray dev/No Scratches

[gbenaim]

Just wanted to share the joy, just deved my first 8x10s in trays, scratch free! I had tried it w 4x5s and failed every time, so was pretty concerned about 8x10s, but it turned out just fine. It's easier to handle than the smaller film, it turns out. Anyway,

GB

 

[Scott Peters]

Congratulations. I find the smaller the tray the better. Keeps the negs from 'free-floating' around the tray exposing corners creating scratches. So, for 4 x 5 try a 5 x 7 tray. Maybe that will help.

 

[Alan9940]

Hello GB,

Congrats on your success with 8x10 development. Before I had a Jobo, I developed all my LF film in trays and rarely had a scratch. Evenness of development was sometimes an issue, but that's another story. Also, unlike Scott I always used a tray size one size larger than the film; 8x10 tray for 4x5, 11x14 tray for 8x10. If you run a length of square plexi under the far end of the trays (if I remember correctly mine was about 1/2" square), the films will not "drift" in the tray; it's not effort to keep the films "cornered".

Just a couple of other things to think about as you gain more experience with LF film.

Good luck!

 

[photomc]

Congratulations GB, sounds like there will be some contact prints coming real soon.

 

[mjs]

Ain't them big negatives purty! Wait 'till you print them...

Mike

 

[Jordan.K]

Congrats!

 

[palewin]

Congratulations on you "tray success." Some thoughts which might help with 4x5s (I'm just in the process of developing 50+ negs from a vacation trip, about 7 runs of 8 negs each...). First, tilt the trays towards you by placing some scrap wood at the far ends - that way any negs which get away float towards you, and more importantly, it keeps the liquid at the working end deeper, which minimizes scratches. I would suggest "googling" for Ken Lee's website, which has a bunch of tray processing suggestions. The one I picked up from him is using plastic food storage containers, roughly 6x8, from the supermarket, instead of trays. They are deeper than trays (again, the depth of liquid minimizes the potential for scratching, since it keeps the shuffled neg further from the others when you put it back in the chemicals) and has less surface area (which reduces oxidation on rapidly-oxidizing developers like the PMK I use). And, since I keep stressing depth of liquid, don't be stingy with the amount of developer and fixer. I use 2 liters for each run (PMK is very dilute, so 2 liters is inexpensive, and I re-use the fixer based on the manufacturer's capacity numbers in square inches; the pre-soak and stop bath are both water, so they're free.)

 

[gbenaim]

Well, my celebrations were a little premature. No scratches, but the edges on a couple are extra dense. I don't know whether it's from the development or bellows flare, maybe someone knows how to tell the difference. I don't have a scanner, otherwise I'd post examples. The bottom and left edges on a couple of images are denser, and they were longish exposures in full sun, though I did shade the lens throughout w the darkslide. I'll see how it goes next time. If it is from the processing, is it just a metter of keeping the negs in the center of the tray all the time, so as to avoid increased agitation next to the walls of the tray (I turned 180 degrees a couple of times)? What else can cause this? Thanks,

GB

 

[GeorgesGiralt]

Well, my celebrations were a little premature. No scratches, but the edges on a couple are extra dense.
...........................................................................
What else can cause this? Thanks,
GB

Hi, for one, will bet on a leaky film holder.
Try to load it with a sheet of B&W paper and let it sit for a couple of minutes under a desk lamp, then process the sheet and you'll see...
I had a Grafmatic with the foam at the bottom leaking light, and all my 6 negs were denser around the septum edge were the opening is. Of course, the first and second sheet were the worst....
Hope this helps !

 

[gbenaim]

Well, the edges are clear, so I ruled out a leak for that reason.

 

[eddie gunks]

great work.

i just did too many 4x5 and 5x7 together and of course scratched the best neg! badly!

eddie

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I have great respect for anyone who can tray process sheet film without scratching. I'm getting better at it, but it still isn't easy. When possible, I'll stick to my Jobo drums

 

[gbenaim]

Thanks, guys, but please take a look at my second post, as I think I might be doing something wrong, got denser edges.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

If the edges are clear, and they print normally, I'd say it was some kind of internal light leak or uneven lens flare. I don't think it is from processing. If anything, I've been told to keep the film in one corner of the tray to make it easier to shuffle without scratching.

 

[GeorgesGiralt]

Strange,
On one post you said :
"Well, my celebrations were a little premature. No scratches, but the edges on a couple are extra dense."
and reply to my post with :
"Well, the edges are clear, so I ruled out a leak for that reason."
So I'm confused ;-)
Are your negatives thinner or denser ?
If they are denser it is probably a light leak, if they are thinner, maybe some sort of vigneting. Did you use movements ? Did you check that the lens iris was totally uncovered by looking at the clipped corners of the ground glass ?
Has your lens enough coverage ? Is your bellow too soft and lagging too much ? Do you have something getting loose into the bellow when you insert the DDS ?
And last but not least (I've done this often.....) did you insert the film holder fully home ?

 

[gbenaim]

George, I should have been clearer. The edges of the image area are denser than the rest of the image, but the unexposed edges of the neg (i.e. the parts covered by the guides and flap) are perfectly clear. Usually, when I've seen light leaks, they affect the usually clear areas. Hope that clears it up.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

If it isn't affecting the unexposed margins but stops at the end of the image area, it is most likely an exposure issue, not a processing issue. Have you contact printed any of these negatives yet to see the problem?

 

[gbenaim]

Scott, I thought it was the other way around. Why would developing affect the unexposed areas? Conversely, if there's a leak that exposes the usually clear areas, what would the method of developing have to do with it? I did print them, btw, that's when I actually noticed it.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

developing would affect the entire piece of film, if you are tray processing, since there is nothing to mask the edge. If there is a light leak, unless the leak is in the film holder structure itself, the margins are well-shielded by the film holder. I don't have a scan of an image I processed with stainless-steel hangers in a tank once, but I overagitated, and as a result, I had these marks on the negative from over-development where the developer surged through the holes in the hanger. You can see it even into the masked edge of the film.

Sounds like we need to see your contact sheets to properly diagnose this issue. If the clear area is consistently clear the whole way through, it's more likely a light leak in the holder, unless the light leak is profound, which it sounds like if it is a light leak, this was not.

It could be the developer though, because in the development process, even though the edge did not receive exposure, the unexposed silver is still present in the film, and over-vigorous agitation or other development process issues can cause image forming silver to deposit in the margins.

 

[gbenaim]

I'm leaning towards a leak somewhere in the camera back/folder area, so will check and let you know how it goes. Thanks for your help.

 

[gbenaim]

Well, I spent all afternoon yesterday testing the camera for leaks, and found the bellows is full of pinholes along the seams. I'm in touch w the store I bought it from, they'll either try to find me a new bellows or refund most of the money. The pinholes closer to the back were probably causing the most damage, but the whole things leaking light. Oh well, that's ebay for you, even if you explicitly ask someone to check a camera, they'll send it without checking and let you deal w it. Thanks everyone for their help.

GB

 

[Joe VanCleave]

I've experienced dense edges when developing 4x5 in small trays, and I'm convinced the problem happens due to inconsistent agitation; the edges are getting localized agitation at a higher rate (by 'curl-over' of chems from bottom to top, or perhaps waves bouncing off the sidewalls?) than is the middle of the film. I've solved this problem by using larger sized trays, so that the entire emulsion surface gets agitated more evenly.

It's a tradeoff between increased cost of chemistry verses ruining the negatives - which turns out not to be a tradeoff at all!

 

[mark]

Just wanted to share the joy, just deved my first 8x10s in trays, scratch free! I had tried it w 4x5s and failed every time, so was pretty concerned about 8x10s, but it turned out just fine. It's easier to handle than the smaller film, it turns out. Anyway,

GB

I hate you.

My scratches show up in the fix.

 

[gbenaim]

Well, having patched up the bellows, I'm still getting the odd neg w denser edges, which is likely due to bellows flare. It's happened so far w a 19 in lens on 8x10, shaded but of a sunny scene. Other than a good shade, what can one do to prevent this? Thanks.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

try re-blacking the inside of your bellows. They may be faded enough that they're reflecting light back onto the film. Also check the light seal where the back meets the rear standard. There may be some light slipping in there. You're shooting a Calumet C1, correct? If that's so, probably about the best you can do is re-paint the mating surface.