Winding mechanism in both direction

Laci Toth · Feb 24, 2021

Hello everyone,

I’ve a folding camera and I love to make double exposures with it.
I’m thinking to make notes about the frames so I’d be able to deliberately wind the film back to certain frames which would match best with the photo I’m about to take. As I can’t rewind the film as it would destroy the mechanism I’m wondering if there’s a medium format camera out there which can do this.
I know of pinhole cameras like the Reality So Subtle 6x9 which can do this but lacks of lens, shutter and a viewfinder so it can’t be used handheld.
I know someone who builds cameras, the man behind Argentum cameras and we live in the same city but as he’s so busy that an order takes a year or more I postpone it for now and search for a solution.

btaylor · Feb 24, 2021

Anything that accepts sheet film would work perfectly, then you can organize the film holders any way you like. Like a Baby Speed or Crown Graphic.

Donald Qualls · Feb 24, 2021

You might look into one of the 3D printed medium format designs. It seems likely these could be modified to allow winding both directions, and since they're being built up from scratch, you can make sure there isn't a ratchet or other parts to prevent reversing (while you're adding a dual knob).

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 24, 2021

Use sheet film.

Laci Toth · Feb 24, 2021

I prefer more medium format.
Sheet film is expensive, takes a lot of time to load, escecially if I’ve to search for the exact sheet and the camera is huge compare to a folding camera or a diy one.
I can’t shoot handheld with a LF.

Laci Toth · Feb 24, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
You might look into one of the 3D printed medium format designs. It seems likely these could be modified to allow winding both directions, and since they're being built up from scratch, you can make sure there isn't a ratchet or other parts to prevent reversing (while you're adding a dual knob).

I found a fb forum about 3D printed cameras. I’ll ask them.

Dan Daniel · Feb 24, 2021

Laci Toth said:
I found a fb forum about 3D printed cameras. I’ll ask them.

It shouldn't be hard to build a wind mechanism on both ends. And removing the ratchet or other one-way system is simple. 3-d printing should open this all up much easier than retrofitting an older camera.

The only suggestion for folders I have is to look for a company that put wind knobs on opposite times. Zeiss did this- looks like some of the plain Ikontas had wind on the opposite side of Super Ikontas? Both styles have a cover plate and such so the actual installation wouldn't be too difficult as it is external to the film chamber. And again, removing the one-way system is easy- either a ratchet or rollers with springs that pop out easily.

Andrew Patteson · Feb 24, 2021

Sheet film (medium format size) would be a great solution to your specific desire, but would create other complications, as you have noted.

If you are willing to accept a higher level of serendipity than sheet film would allow for, with the benefit of using camera(s) you already have, you could keep notes on what you have photographed, and then re-run the entire roll through the camera. You would know what was on each frame and be able to think through your second exposure to work with the first. It doesn't give you as much choice/control as being able to go straight to any single frame -- but not having total control isn't all bad.

If you're willing to have multiple cameras loaded, and with you, that would give a greater level of choice.

ic-racer · Feb 24, 2021

You can't wind 120 film backwards. The film will buckle at the point where the paper and the film are taped together.

Donald Qualls · Feb 24, 2021

ic-racer said:
You can't wind 120 film backwards. The film will buckle at the point where the paper and the film are taped together.

Actually, it'll work fine as long as you haven't advanced past the last frame. Earlier than that, the film is still captive under the backing paper on the supply spool, so turning the (hypothetical) "reverse" knob will pull equally on the film and backing, and both will reverse smoothly.

Now, if you try to back up after advancing past the last frame (or maybe even to the last frame, on some cameras with long lead-in and lead-out), you're likely to not just buckle the film, but have it separate entirely and try to curl up separately from the backing.

btaylor · Feb 24, 2021

Laci Toth said:
I prefer more medium format.
Sheet film is expensive, takes a lot of time to load, escecially if I’ve to search for the exact sheet and the camera is huge compare to a folding camera or a diy one.
I can’t shoot handheld with a LF.

There are medium format 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 hand held press cameras that are not huge. Sheet film in that format is limited, but it is out there. But if you find sheet film too much hassle then its a no-go

Dan Fromm · Feb 24, 2021

Laci Toth said:
Hello everyone,

I’ve a folding camera and I love to make double exposures with it.
I’m thinking to make notes about the frames so I’d be able to deliberately wind the film back to certain frames which would match best with the photo I’m about to take. As I can’t rewind the film as it would destroy the mechanism I’m wondering if there’s a medium format camera out there which can do this.
I know of pinhole cameras like the Reality So Subtle 6x9 which can do this but lacks of lens, shutter and a viewfinder so it can’t be used handheld.
I know someone who builds cameras, the man behind Argentum cameras and we live in the same city but as he’s so busy that an order takes a year or more I postpone it for now and search for a solution.

Well, you could plan better. Then two exposures on the same frame would require only cocking the shutter again and taking the second exposure.

xya · Feb 24, 2021

there is a camera that does all that you are looking for, the certo super sport dolly (funny name). it winds and rewinds as you want and there is even a built-in notepad to take the notes you want https://www.120folder.com/certo_ssd.htm. it's one of my favorites. some models even take sheet film when you want it. I think it's one of the most underrated folders, reknown lenses, rangefinders for some, interchangeable lenses...what do you want more?

Dan Daniel · Feb 24, 2021

ic-racer said:
You can't wind 120 film backwards. The film will buckle at the point where the paper and the film are taped together.

From my reading, he does not plan to do a full rewind. Take a shot, keep a note. Take another shot or two, then come across a scene, want to play it on top of a frame three back. Rewind to that point. Then wind forward a few frames again and take a new shot. Etc.

Well, that's my reading of how he wants to work- on the fly in the field. Precise alignment wouldn't be the goal. And not rewinding to the beginning past the tape point.

Laci Toth · Feb 25, 2021

xya said:
there is a camera that does all that you are looking for, the certo super sport dolly (funny name). it winds and rewinds as you want and there is even a built-in notepad to take the notes you want https://www.120folder.com/certo_ssd.htm. it's one of my favorites. some models even take sheet film when you want it. I think it's one of the most underrated folders, reknown lenses, rangefinders for some, interchangeable lenses...what do you want more?

Yes! That’s the one! Thanks for raising my awareness! It has everything what I need. The winding mechanism, two formats - I intended to shoot 6x4,5 anyway so it’s again a plus that I can choose which I’m gonna use and the coupled rangefinder is just awesome.
Since then I found two for sale one is without the rangefinder but a lot of accessories like plate holders, ground glass, focusing hood etc. and the other is the rangefinder version. Both needs some repair but it’s okay.

tballphoto · Mar 21, 2021

never seen a folding camera that had a lens shutter dependent upon having the film wound. Dont believe that "winding film to cock shutter" became doable until 35mm formats.

grat · Mar 21, 2021

It's been a pretty common feature on TLR's since the 50's. My C33 isn't a folding camera, but it does have bellows, and cocks the shutter when you wind the film.

But you're right that it's pretty rare on folders-- I say rare because I assume somewhere, there's some obscure model we've never heard of that does it. My combat graphic has a remote shutter cocking mechanism, but it's the exact opposite of a folding camera.

xya · Mar 21, 2021

tballphoto said:
never seen a folding camera that had a lens shutter dependent upon having the film wound. Dont believe that "winding film to cock shutter" became doable until 35mm formats.

there are the fuji gs645 and the makina 67 at least that come to my mind...

removed account4 · Mar 21, 2021

if the Certo Super Dolly doesn't work out ... you might consider making your own camera ...
if you can probably get away with this bit of fun
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hyperfoca...com/?q=hyperfocal+distance+chart&t=osx&ia=web
seeing MF films only taped at one end be careful when get close to the untaped end of the roll BTDT
have fun with your project !

Donald Qualls · Mar 21, 2021

tballphoto said:
never seen a folding camera that had a lens shutter dependent upon having the film wound. Dont believe that "winding film to cock shutter" became doable until 35mm formats.

Mamiya 6 Automat cocks the shutter by film advance -- but it's one of the last of the medium format folders, decades later than the Contax and Leica, quite a while after even the Retina. The Retina was the first 35mm folder to do this, maybe the only one (35mm folders pretty well vanished within a few years after the War), and might have been the first folder in any format that cocked the shutter with the film advance. I don't think any of us count the Rollei 35 or Minox 35 as folders, though the Minox was very close in concept -- but those were another decade or two later.

MattKing · Mar 21, 2021

tballphoto said:
never seen a folding camera that had a lens shutter dependent upon having the film wound. Dont believe that "winding film to cock shutter" became doable until 35mm formats.

There are several cameras that have built in double exposure prevention that depends on the film being wound, even if you have to cock the shutter manually.
My Baby Bessa is an example.

pentaxuser · Mar 22, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Well, you could plan better. Then two exposures on the same frame would require only cocking the shutter again and taking the second exposure.

Well from what I read of Laci's problem he did explain why that wasn't possible I have a feeling that taking two exposures instantly had probably already crossed his mind as a solution if he already knew there and then what two scenes he wanted on the same exposure

pentaxuser

Laci Toth · Mar 25, 2021

I think I’ll build my own similar to this guy here:
https://realitysosubtle.fr/realitysosubtle-6x9f/
I found a 3d printing company where I live so I need to look up for precise details about the camera I’d like to use. I’ve a Pentax 67 lens for sale but now I think I just keep it for this project.

grat · Mar 25, 2021

Dora Goodman has a couple of designs on her website, and there are a whole bunch of designs under the name "terapin" on Thingiverse.

Laci Toth · Mar 26, 2021

grat said:
Dora Goodman has a couple of designs on her website, and there are a whole bunch of designs under the name "terapin" on Thingiverse.

I’ll have a look at! Thank you!

Winding mechanism in both direction

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