Will There Ever Be Single Weight Paper Again?

donbga · Aug 7, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
SW FB paper is difficult to make. It is hard to coat emulsion on it. Imagine making paper towels, but at very high speed and pressure, and then coat on top of it. Then you have wet paper towels.

No one wants to make SW paper anymore, and I would guess that production will stop soon, even in Russia if they try to speed up the coating machines.

And if Efke can complain about B&W paper sales, then imagine how bad it was for Kodak.

PE

Maybe it's no wonder that companies don't want to make film and paper any longer with ever sagging demand.

Simon R Galley · Aug 8, 2006

Dear Donbga,

We love making monochrome !!!!! we are proud to make monochrome, and we are good at it, I guess its the same for the people in the factories at FUJI and KODAK
and the other coaters, its just that we have to run the business well and every silver coater does face challenges with falling demand, rising raw material prices etc, etc
but for sure we will be coating silver film and paper for many years.

Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Charles Webb · Aug 8, 2006

Petzi said:
Think twice about that. Currently, manufacturers have a problem selling one production run of single-weight paper. Now you demand they should produce four or five times that amount. (You're not suggesting everybody should use grade 2, are you?)

First off Petzi, I do not like the tone of your post! I demanded nothing, I never suggested in any way what amount of paper should be manufactured.
I am not suggesting that you or anyone else use grade two, but I did for years and never had a complaint from any customer.

VC paper was invented for people that never really learned how to make good negatives in the first place. No one used or needed a compensating developer, because they knew how to expose any subject so it would print it's best on two or three grade paper. VC has become a crutch for those who choose to reinvent the wheel rather than learn the necessary skill to properly expose and develop film.

Like my original statement, "I would rather see someone manufacture a SW paper in grades 2 & 3. So Petzi, you give it a second thought, and back off with the smart ass remarks.

My comment here is my own opinion based an nearly sixty years of Professional Photography!

Charlie.......................................

Petzi · Aug 8, 2006

Charles Webb said:
First off Petzi, I do not like the tone of your post!
...
So Petzi, you give it a second thought, and back off with the smart ass remarks.

Ingenious...

Alex Hawley · Aug 8, 2006

Petzi, no one "demanded" anything. In the English language, whether spoken in the UK or USA, a "personal preference" does not mean "demand".

I too would prefer graded paper. In fact, I prefer and use graded paper in my current work. But by that preference, I don't "demand" that a manufacturer make a product that is currently uneconomical to make.

Donald Miller · Aug 8, 2006

Alex Hawley · Aug 8, 2006

Well, OK, I'm not going to get into a flame war about anything. Just thought something might have been lost in the translation.

Petzi · Aug 8, 2006

Alex Hawley said:
Petzi, no one "demanded" anything. In the English language, whether spoken in the UK or USA, a "personal preference" does not mean "demand".

I may not be the greatest master of the English language, but in my view, a personal preference for something normally leads to demand for that thing... You go to the store and buy it, or you try to find someone that makes it for you. That's one meaning of demand. If you prefer Pepsi, then that creates a demand for Pepsi, and none for Coke. At least when you're thirsty...

Anyway, I guess I didn't use the word demand properly in this context. :confused:

Alex Hawley · Aug 8, 2006

No problem Petzi.

Changeling1 · Aug 9, 2006

A single weight glossy fibre-based print has an exceptionally noticeable, almost schocking "retro" look about it. I came into a largish stash of it about 20 years ago, Graded Kodak "something or other" and had a great time with it even though the paper was substantially out of date at the time.

Damn.... Although totally unrelated to the SW Glossy paper I now find myself "Jonesing" for all those exotic, curious, and whimsical print surfaces that you could pick with Kodak b/w papers.... Wasn't there a "Velvet Stipple"?

PhotoJim · Aug 9, 2006

Petzi said:
Anyway, I guess I didn't use the word demand properly in this context. :confused:

In English, there are two common uses for "demand".

There is demand as in economic supply and demand. If someone wants a product, there is a demand for it. (We would not normally say that Joe demands fibre paper, though... we would say that Joe has a demand for fibre paper.)

Then there is demand as in emphatic request. "I demand action!" I am forcefully asking for what I want.

The meanings are similar, but the difference is there. I demand very little (emphatically), but I create a lot of demand for things.

Interesting thread. Unfortunately, the shrinking of the silver photography market means that we will have to settle more and more often for what is available and not for what we would ideally want.

PhotoJim · Aug 9, 2006

Changeling1 said:
Wasn't there a "Velvet Stipple"?

Ilford had this surface. I bought a package of Ilford Multigrade FB in velvet stipple once. It was on sale at a local photo store, probably because someone had special ordered it and not picked it up. I had never used fibre paper before. To steal a phrase from those far more modern and trendy than I am, OMG.

I lovingly used up that package of paper and miss the surface terribly. I demand its return!

removed account4 · Aug 9, 2006

a portrait photographer i printed for used velvet stipple an awful lot.
it was a really nice surface.

she also used a surface that was like a fine emery board ( can't remember the name ) we used to abrade it and rub graphite into it ( the stuff that was left in the pouch after we sharpened out retouching pencils) to tone down the highlights ...

oh and since we are tooting personal preferences. i can't stand vc paper. i only buy it because over the years it was the only single weight paper out there, except for azo.

Petzi · Aug 9, 2006

PhotoJim said:
(We would not normally say that Joe demands fibre paper, though... we would say that Joe has a demand for fibre paper.)

On the other hand, voicing one's preference for a discontinued product in a "Product Availability" forum that is frequented by decision makers of prospective manufacturers is as close to "demanding" as it gets.

Black Dog · Aug 9, 2006

Don't kentmere make kentona in a stippled surface?

Photo Engineer · Aug 9, 2006

Kodak once made SW and DW papers in 19 different surfaces. Samples of these are in the archives of GEH. In the 60s, Kodak made papers in 11 grades. They were:F, A, E, G, J, K, V, N, R, X and Y. These were called, among others and not in order, Smooth Glossy, Smooth Lustre, Smooth High Lustre, Fine Grained Lustre, Fine Grained High Lustre Tweed Lustre, Suede Matte, Silk Lustre and Tapestry Lustre. Papers included Azo, Polycontrast, Kodabromide, Ektalure, Polylure, Medalist, Opal, Polycontrast Rapid, Mural and Polylure.

And see what we have come to now? All due to decreasing sales.

Well, I have coated a Velour and a Watercolor and they look pretty decent.

PE

fparnold · Aug 9, 2006

We used a lot of glossy single-weight FB 20 years ago at the newspaper, as we ferrotyped it to dry it, then sent it down to the stat camera. I think the old wiring wouldn't have been happy with the hairdryer necessary to dry RC. It was fun in a way, but always made me miss the Brovira DW we were using at school.

As for PE's list, I miss the "G" surface in Ektalure. Air-dried it was reasonably flat, and a lovely texture. Just enough tooth to help obscure the grain of 35mm, without being too obvious about it.

Alex Hawley · Aug 9, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak once made SW and DW papers in 19 different surfaces. Samples of these are in the archives of GEH. In the 60s, Kodak made papers in 11 grades. They were:F, A, E, G, J, K, V, N, R, X and Y. These were called, among others and not in order, Smooth Glossy, Smooth Lustre, Smooth High Lustre, Fine Grained Lustre, Fine Grained High Lustre Tweed Lustre, Suede Matte, Silk Lustre and Tapestry Lustre. Papers included Azo, Polycontrast, Kodabromide, Ektalure, Polylure, Medalist, Opal, Polycontrast Rapid, Mural and Polylure.

And see what we have come to now? All due to decreasing sales.

Thanks for that historical info Ron. Unhappily, I missed most of that era in photography.

Amund · Aug 10, 2006

Here`s a SW paper still made: Dead Link Removed

Gerald Koch · Aug 10, 2006

A better question might well be will there be any FB papers in any weight in the future. Some years ago Kodak stopped making any FB color paper as there was little or no demand. A few months ago they stopped manufacturing all papers, FB or RC. Again their manufacture was too costly and the demand too low. :-(

Lachlan Young · Aug 10, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
And see what we have come to now? All due to decreasing sales.

Well, I have coated a Velour and a Watercolor and they look pretty decent.

PE

Sounds nice - I can only imagine what Azo on a velour base looks like...

Lachlan

meltronic · Aug 10, 2006

Amund said:
Here`s a SW paper still made: Dead Link Removed

That's the stuff. It really is beautiful paper. That shop sells it at a huge profit though. The price listed is more than $20 above retail price. If anyone is interested in this paper, let me know as I can buy an 8x10 100 sheet box for 6,900 yen (about $60). It's worth it to me, because I would get ten percent of that price added to my point card for store credit.

Matt

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2006

Gerald Koch said:
A better question might well be will there be any FB papers in any weight in the future. Some years ago Kodak stopped making any FB color paper as there was little or no demand. A few months ago they stopped manufacturing all papers, FB or RC. Again their manufacture was too costly and the demand too low. :-(

Kodak stopped manufacture of all paper bases, but still contracts the manufacture of RC from Schoeller.

PE

Photo Engineer · Aug 10, 2006

Lachlan Young said:
Sounds nice - I can only imagine what Azo on a velour base looks like...

Lachlan

Lachlan;

I'm not sure that Azo was ever offered on Velour. I know there were 19 flavors and that might have included DW as well.

The calendaring rollers were made by Rhoelen (sp?) Engraving of Rochester, and were replaced very often as the high pressure and constant use wore them out rapidly. You don't realize how difficult it is to make other than glossy or matte papers.

PE

bart Nadeau · Aug 10, 2006

I still have a box of A weight/ surface Polycontrast in the basement. If you think SW is light, try A. It is like a sheet of 28# typeing paper. It was great for bining into a report.
I think I read that Saint AA used to send friends copies of current work in progress on A weight, folded in with his typed letter in a #10 envelope.

bart

Will There Ever Be Single Weight Paper Again?

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