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Will a Lab Box 120 reel fit a 220 roll?

A J Chicago

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Will a Lab Box 120 reel fit a 220 roll? Does anyone have any 220 Lab Box experience? It's a difficult film to come by, so I know there won't be many. I know a Paterson reel will fit a roll of 220, but I haven't sat down and looked at them to compare what I can see.
 

Donald Qualls

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If it's the same reel that takes 35mm (i.e. adjustable for plate spacing), then yes, it will. 220 is about the same length as 135-36, and I routinely load two rolls of 120 end to end in a Paterson 120 reel (which is sized, in terms of groove length, for 35mm).
 
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A J Chicago

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Thanks. Yes. I've read that it's no problem putting onto a Paterson reel, but this is a Lab Box reel. Gonna have to get them out and count rings. By the way, when you "fit" a 36 frame roll on one do you know if they overlap inside (IE: touch) or not?
 

Donald Qualls

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Since Lab Box loads from the center out (I'd momentarily forgotten that), you may be reduced to counting turns, indeed. It should be obvious if the spacing is different, however; since 120 is half the length, the turns will be twice as far apart if it's "just right" instead of being made to fit 220.

Edit: I just went and looked at the Lab Box as offered by Cinestill.

It uses the same reel for both 35mm and 120, as far as I can see -- the 120 module is just the loader portion. That means the reel plates are the same, long enough for 135-36, which makes them also long enough for 220.
 
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Randy Stewart

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"It uses the same reel for both 35mm and 120, as far as I can see -- the 120 module is just the loader portion. That means the reel plates are the same, long enough for 135-36, which makes them also long enough for 220."

The 35mm and 120 reels for the Lab Box are entirely different, so you cannot assume that the 120 reel will accept the same length of film as a 36 exp 35mm film. The two reels do use the same center spindle, which has been a source of much issue for LB users, but that is a different subject. In other words, the reel is not a single unit, the width of which can be adjusted to fit 35mm or 120 film, like Paterson and some others.
 
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A J Chicago

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I just had a thought. This is new to me and I never really thought this through. Even if 2 rolls WOULD fit on the 120 spool it now seems impossible to me to be able to join the two without exposing the first. The way the Lab Box works, when you remove the backing paper the actual process of pulling the paper on the outside coils the film on the inside into a small, light tight compartment in the film module, and it leaves a tab of film and a little taped on paper sticking up out of the light tight compartment for you to attach the film clip/strap on the cranking reel to. Nix on the 2 120 rolls! But what about a continuous roll or 220 with header and trailer paper only? A roll of 220 might fit into that light tight compartment, but I can't see how you could get a roll of 220 into that light tight compartment without backing paper. It's designed to strip the backing paper at the same time the actual film is coiling into the light tight compartment in a lid closed environment. Nix on the 220! Doh! You might be able to get a roll of 220 on the reel in the darkroom or bag, but that defeats the whole purpose of the Lab Box design.
 

MattKing

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If I understand correctly how the Lab Box works, I can't see any way that a user could use it without ending up leaving the leader (or would it be the trailer?) backing paper in the box to be developed with the film.
My experience with it is limited - I've seen it demonstrated with 120 film once.
 

Donald Qualls

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Very good. I couldn't quickly find a photo or photo set that showed the full contents of the 120 module (which would seemingly have to include the reel and loading guide, as well as the box that attaches on the end of the tank). Also, as noted, it seems difficult to get the 220 film separated from its paper header and tail without fogging more than an inch, even if the 120 reel would accept that film length.

That said, I don't know why they'd make the reels with different groove spacing when it would surely be cheaper to make just one right and one left plate, while varying only the core and guide parts. If the OP has a stash of 220 film, it might be worth contacting the Lab Box makers to ask how to go about loading 220, as well as confirm whether it'll even fit.
 
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A J Chicago

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See the OP's (me) update above. I think I've figured out that there is NO WAY to mount 2 120 rolls or a roll of 220 for different, but similar, reasons. Both have to do with the roll of 120 or 220 coiling in a dry, light tight compartment prior to developing. Neither can be done in daylight and I don't think I'd want to try in the dark with a reel not designed for it. I also found on the manufacturer's website a FAQ about how many rolls can be loaded and their answer was one. I didn't believe it, but I do now. I wish they'd explain why without making you strain your brain! I also sent the manufacturer the same question through their Italian website. Their website rejected my question entered using their own form for some dumb reason that they evidently don't care too much about. Half the site is in Italian. Thank you very much.
 

beemermark

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MattKing

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beemermark said:
36 exp 35mm film is 5 feet long. 220 is 10 feet long. So, no I don't think it will work.
Click to expand...
That is some seriously long 220 film you have there!
220 film is 144 cm long - about 56.7 inches - less than 5 feet.
Commercial labs had enough troubles with 220 film in their dip and dunk machines. If it had been ten feet long, they would have been up in arms!
 

mshchem

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Nothing as easy as a nice clean dry Paterson reel, a Paterson tank, and a dry, cool, dark room (closet? in the evening ) . Inexpensive, 120 or 220. No gimmicks, must have sold 40,000,000 tanks and reels over the decades.
And if you are smart, get yourself a a nice big bottle and replenish. Easy peazee, lemon squeezee.
 

Bud Hamblen

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A 120 roll just about fills up the 120 reel on my Lab-Box. I don't think a 220 roll would fit. The Lab-Box depends on the 120 backing paper to pull the film into the 120 module. You'd have to load the Lab-Box with 220 film in the dark, which kind of defeats the purpose of the Lab-Box.
 
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Randy Stewart

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"That said, I don't know why they'd make the reels with different groove spacing when it would surely be cheaper to make just one right and one left plate, while varying only the core and guide parts."

You have to know and appreciate the history of development of the Lab Box to understand how unreasonable your question is. This was designed by Italians with no prior experience doing this sort of project. Every part of the Lab Box probably had to be fully redesigned at least once while they struggled toward production. For the first 90% of the project, they planned to use one expandable reel for both 35mm and 120, practically a copy of the Paterson style reel. They aren't talking, but it looks like prototype testing showed uneven development using that reel in the 35mm position, as just before they hit production, they redesigned the 35mm reel to add agitators to the exterior, and the prior reel, now the 120 reel, lost its multisize adjustment capacity. (The agitators make the 35mm reel too wide to expand for 120 and still fit in the tank.) Lab Box is a classic example of a grand design idea finding the devil in the details, which is how they spent the 700k euros from Kickstarter doing a project orginally budjeted for 120k euros. At least, they got a good product to the backers, which must be a high watermark for any KS project.
 

Donald Qualls

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They couldn't find a used Rondinax to copy? Okay, not to be snarky, but if they had to redesign the 35mm reel that way, then at least there's a sensible reason for not having an expandable reel -- though it's very far from clear how they could fail to have the same problems, only bigger, on 120 as on 35mm, especially if the 120 was originally to have used the same reel plates. But I agree, for $200 retail and after 700k Euro development cost, I should hope it at least works well.
 
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