Wide angles for 4x5

E. von Hoegh · Apr 27, 2013

Dan Fromm said:
E., we're partially in small format land. There Apo-Lanthar is a trade name, as is Heliar, and both names (neither 5/3 lenses) include wide angles.

About the old types, agree about the need to stop ancient types down to get full coverage, but modern types also gain coverage on stopping down.

Disagree strongly about the old types' limited coverage. Consider, if you will, f/18 Protars, Ross' f/16 versions, f/14 Perigraphes and f/8 and f/9 Wide Angle Dagors. I have a tiny 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor that covers 2x3. It isn't cataloged, I have no idea what its intended format is.

Disagree too that some of the modern types have lots of coverage. My little 38/4.5 Biogon covers a hair more than its intended format; has to cover 80 mm, puts good image in an 84 mm circle (huge difference there, eh?) and the illumination vanishes at 86 mm.

IMO -- not everyone agrees -- the significant differences are that modern w/a types in general are faster than the ancients, therefore easier to focus; that the ones that take advantage of Roosinov's tilting pupil trick have more even illumination than the ancients; and that the modern ones don't have to be stopped as far down as the ancients for good results. On this last point, for example, Rodenstock says that Apo Grandagons are best used between f/8 and f/11.

Cheers,

Dan

True, but the OP is asking about lenses for 4x5. And for me, an Apo Lanthar is and will forever be a large format lens, regardless of the dictates of current "branding" practices.

As for limited coverage, as a general thing an 80 year old WA for say 8x10, such as the Wollensak series III, doesn't allow for movements of any degree. I did say "usually" as a qualifier when I used the Angulon (which in the 90mm flavor doesn't give much if any wiggle room on 4x5) as an example.

Most modern WA lenses do give better coverage than their vintage counterparts of the same focal length.
I didn't want to go into any real detail in an answer until the OP is up to speed on the very basics.

Clemtography · Apr 27, 2013

E. von Hoegh said:
True, but the OP is asking about lenses for 4x5. And for me, an Apo Lanthar is and will forever be a large format lens, regardless of the dictates of current "branding" practices.

As for limited coverage, as a general thing an 80 year old WA for say 8x10, such as the Wollensak series III, doesn't allow for movements of any degree. I did say "usually" as a qualifier when I used the Angulon (which in the 90mm flavor doesn't give much if any wiggle room on 4x5) as an example.

Most modern WA lenses do give better coverage than their vintage counterparts of the same focal length.
I didn't want to go into any real detail in an answer until the OP is up to speed on the very basics.

Im up to speed so far been reading up intensely so far.
I would like to hear more from you

dmtry · Apr 27, 2013

E. von Hoegh said:
I didn't want to go into any real detail in an answer until the OP is up to speed on the very basics.

I am not the OP, but would like to know more details

Dan Fromm · Apr 27, 2013

Clem, we've been wrangling, to some extent, about points that really aren't relevant to you.

90 mm lenses are often used on 4x5. So are shorter ones. You probably won't know which short focal length(s) is(are) best for you until you try several.

These days it is hard to lose a lot of money on used LF lenses, although at the moment prices of older 90s with limited coverage (Angulons, Wolly Optars/Raptars) may be on the high side because of a small craze for a new hand-holdable 4x5 camera that's designed around them. If I were you, depending on budget, I'd get a 90/8 Super Angulon and use it. I have an early one in #00 shutter; it is in terrible condition, I use it as a paperweight. Hold out for a newer one in #0 shutter. Same optics, shutter that's much easier to live with.

There are other similar lenses from Fuji, Nikon, and Rodenstock. I just took a look at keh.com, who have two 90/8 Fujinons at quite reasonable prices for that sort of thing. I buy most of my gear through eBay but keh is safer to deal with than sellers on eBay.

How you like it will guide you to what you'll like best. I'm sorry, but imagination and trying to reason from what you like on smaller formats aren't as good guides as one would think. You really have to get a lens, nearly any lens, and try it out. If it doesn't suit, sell it.

The ancient lenses I've mentioned in this discussion are either hard to use (90/14 Perigraphe, dim and in barrel, can be stuffed in the front on a Ilex or Alphax #3 but ...) or cult items (90/18 Protar, dimmer, usually in barrel) and horribly expensive. They're good, but aren't for everyone.

Good luck, have fun, and remember that everything you do will be wrong,

Dan

E., I brought up f/14 Perigraphes and f/18 Protars because they have enormous coverage. Pre-WWI designs, too. There's more junk out there than the common crap we're all familiar with.

Clemtography · Apr 27, 2013

Dan Fromm said:
Clem, we've been wrangling, to some extent, about points that really aren't relevant to you.

90 mm lenses are often used on 4x5. So are shorter ones. You probably won't know which short focal length(s) is(are) best for you until you try several.

These days it is hard to lose a lot of money on used LF lenses, although at the moment prices of older 90s with limited coverage (Angulons, Wolly Optars/Raptars) may be on the high side because of a small craze for a new hand-holdable 4x5 camera that's designed around them. If I were you, depending on budget, I'd get a 90/8 Super Angulon and use it. I have an early one in #00 shutter; it is in terrible condition, I use it as a paperweight. Hold out for a newer one in #0 shutter. Same optics, shutter that's much easier to live with.

There are other similar lenses from Fuji, Nikon, and Rodenstock. I just took a look at keh.com, who have two 90/8 Fujinons at quite reasonable prices for that sort of thing. I buy most of my gear through eBay but keh is safer to deal with than sellers on eBay.

How you like it will guide you to what you'll like best. I'm sorry, but imagination and trying to reason from what you like on smaller formats aren't as good guides as one would think. You really have to get a lens, nearly any lens, and try it out. If it doesn't suit, sell it.

The ancient lenses I've mentioned in this discussion are either hard to use (90/14 Perigraphe, dim and in barrel, can be stuffed in the front on a Ilex or Alphax #3 but ...) or cult items (90/18 Protar, dimmer, usually in barrel) and horribly expensive. They're good, but aren't for everyone.

Good luck, have fun, and remember that everything you do will be wrong,

Dan

E., I brought up f/14 Perigraphes and f/18 Protars because they have enormous coverage. Pre-WWI designs, too. There's more junk out there than the common crap we're all familiar with.

Hey Dan thanks for bringing the post back on topic. It is quite interesting to hear all of your opinions this post has help me more than enough. I hope more people can chip in so that new starters can look at this post.

John Koehrer · Apr 28, 2013

It's also going to make a difference depending what camera you're going to use.
Most 45's, but not all will compress the bellows enough to use a 90, but shorter will definitely need a bag bellows or recessed lensboard. Some cameras that allow compressing the bellows enough may not allow movements. You would need interchangeable bellows.

Alan Gales · Apr 28, 2013

Dan Fromm said:
90 mm lenses are often used on 4x5. So are shorter ones. You probably won't know which short focal length(s) is(are) best for you until you try several.

These days it is hard to lose a lot of money on used LF lenses, although at the moment prices of older 90s with limited coverage (Angulons, Wolly Optars/Raptars) may be on the high side because of a small craze for a new hand-holdable 4x5 camera that's designed around them. If I were you, depending on budget, I'd get a 90/8 Super Angulon and use it. I have an early one in #00 shutter; it is in terrible condition, I use it as a paperweight. Hold out for a newer one in #0 shutter. Same optics, shutter that's much easier to live with.

There are other similar lenses from Fuji, Nikon, and Rodenstock. I just took a look at keh.com, who have two 90/8 Fujinons at quite reasonable prices for that sort of thing. I buy most of my gear through eBay but keh is safer to deal with than sellers on eBay.

How you like it will guide you to what you'll like best. I'm sorry, but imagination and trying to reason from what you like on smaller formats aren't as good guides as one would think. You really have to get a lens, nearly any lens, and try it out. If it doesn't suit, sell it.

Good luck, have fun, and remember that everything you do will be wrong,

Dan

Reread all this. Everything here is spot on and great advice for someone starting out, especially the last line!

I would add one thing. Caltar lenses can be a bargain sometimes. The later ones are rebadged Rodenstocks and Schneiders. Same lens, cheaper price.

Wide angles for 4x5

E. von Hoegh

Clemtography

dmtry

Dan Fromm

Clemtography

John Koehrer

Alan Gales

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency