Why use brand name process solutions with color films

Tim Gray · Jul 27, 2009

The unfortunate thing in this whole discussion is the near impossibility of getting Kodak C-41 kits of reasonable size in a reasonable manner in the US. I wish they just sold a small kit for home users. I don't really want to $150 to get enough bleach to make 50 gallons. Even if I did, I don't know where to order it from that will actually ship it...

Tom Kershaw · Jul 27, 2009

pentaxuser,

The 5 litre Fujihunt C-41 kit is excellent value at £32. The Tetenal kit is £40.

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/shop/search/C-41/

Tom.

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2009

UK retailers split Kodak minilab kits and they are very cheap

Ian

Tim Gray · Jul 27, 2009

Alas, I have not found a US retailer who will do this.

Photo Engineer · Jul 27, 2009

Ian;

Firstoff, we have RIT here with an excellent photographic chemistry course. In fact, the Japanese sent their students here for years until comparable courses were set up at Chiba university. The courses here, according to an undersecretary of photoscience in Japan, were excellent, but the Japaneese surpassed that in the late 80s turning out the equivalent of 25 PhD photochemists per year. RIT never went above the MS program. Today, most of them are out on the street, having been laid off!

Pentaxuser;

As for the blix stability question, this has come up several times on APUG. People complain about the single part blix being cloudy or having a heavy precipitate and a sulfur odor. It is not my province to convince you, read those posts for yourself. This problem is not unknown and therefore not solved. I would not suggest a single part blix even though we could make one. It would still be poised on the edge of decomposition in one way or another I think. I have made compromises. Super Universal Fix VIII will work with Ammonium Ferric EDTA to make a usable film blix. Even so, it does not go all the way in providing the ability to keep as a single part kit.

As for those who have seen good results with these kits or formulations, you usually only look at single results and not comparisons. It is here that I have done work that most have not. Making direct comparisons way back when I did that sort of stuff showed the differences to be real and visible even though the "other formulas" by themselves looked quite good.

PE

pentaxuser · Jul 27, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
pentaxuser,

The 5 litre Fujihunt C-41 kit is excellent value at £32. The Tetenal kit is £40.

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/shop/search/C-41/

Tom.

Tom Thanks for this and taking the trouble to remind me of the kit that you had kindly mentioned before in another thread. What has been your experience with it in terms of longevity? I am thinking in terms of developer specifically. As I have understood things, bleach lasts half way to forever and fix lasts as long as B&W fix so my problem would probably be confined to developer. Unfortunately the Fuji-Hunt kit parts are not sold separately so I'd imagine that you end up buidling up excess quantities of bleach and fix unless the amounts in the kit are measured so that all three parts, dev, bleach and fix run out together.

I had a look at the similar three part Tetenal kit sold by Nova. It works out at about £50 overall but it is bulk quantities and like its MORCO Kodak counter part probably works out quite cheaply per film but would require large volume processing.

It seems to be a simple choice of (a) very small powder C41 as supplied by Silverprint doing as little as 4 films per pack but with the drawback of powder as described by PE (b) small amounts of liquid for 12-16 films as supplied by Tetenal but as a combined bleach/fix as blix or (c) larger amounts of 3 part kits with separate bleach and fix with possible developer wastage and an accumulation of bleach and fix.

OR take the occasional colour film to the local mini-lab for processing. Even if I switched to B&W chromogenic such as Ilford XP2 Super I am not sure I could get throught the developer fast enough and I am not sure I want to switch to solely B&W chromogenic.

So the info on your experience with the Fuji-Hunt kit in terms of the durability of the constituent parts would be useful.

I think there is a real opening here for Matt who has just opened a new web shop. As others have said the small user is not catered for and whereas B&W dev lasts quite a long time, C41 developer is quite another thing.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Jul 27, 2009

pentaxuser,

I've not had any issues with longevity so far. Now on my second kit, I'll probably develop some C-41 film later this week, from a kit opened earlier this year and filled with inert gas from Tetenal. The solutions run at the same volume, so no issues with an excess or lack of a particular component. The kit is to make 5 litres each of developer, bleach, fix, and stabilizer, although I mix direct from concentrate due to my limited usage.

How are you mechanically processing your film?

Tom

wogster · Jul 27, 2009

Ian Grant said:
UK retailers split Kodak minilab kits and they are very cheap

Ian

The question becomes, is the advertised as a Kodak kit that has been split, or is it advertised as Joe Smythes' C41 processing kit? The first you know what the chemistries are, the second you don't really know, they could switch from one chemistry to another.

wogster · Jul 27, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Paul;

For any given solution, there are a maximum of 3 bottles to prepare a working solution, so Developer is A+B+C and Blix is A+B. Bleach is 1 bottle and fix is 1 bottle. Stabilzer is 1 bottle. This pertains to RA and C-41.

So, C-41, Developer A+B+C, Bleach, Fix, Stab/final rinse. 6 bottles. RA, Developer A+B+C, Blix A+B, 5 bottles.

Does that bother you? It is not any different than at present.

PE

It depends also on the size of the concentrate bottles, if a 20L kit uses a 10ml bottle of solution X then splitting that 10ml to make 1L kits would be very difficult, however if we have 200ml of solution A and 200ml of solution B and 200ml of solution C, then splitting that kit would be fairly easy.

Photo Engineer · Jul 27, 2009

wogster said:
It depends also on the size of the concentrate bottles, if a 20L kit uses a 10ml bottle of solution X then splitting that 10ml to make 1L kits would be very difficult, however if we have 200ml of solution A and 200ml of solution B and 200ml of solution C, then splitting that kit would be fairly easy.

Well, the "X" solution does not exist AFAIK. They are all of reasonable volume.

PE

wogster · Jul 27, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Well, the "X" solution does not exist AFAIK. They are all of reasonable volume.

PE

I think Unicolor used it back in the day, which is why it was 7 bottles instead of 6 for the kit.

I guess the other question is, how long does the developer last? For example D76 stock in a full bottle, lasts 6 months. IIRC from back then, the C41 stuff lasted a week if you were lucky.

Ian Grant · Jul 28, 2009

wogster said:
The question becomes, is the advertised as a Kodak kit that has been split, or is it advertised as Joe Smythes' C41 processing kit? The first you know what the chemistries are, the second you don't really know, they could switch from one chemistry to another.

The chemistry I've seen & used has been minilab packs split, sold as Kodak, or Tetenal etc depending who made it. I've used the Tetenal RA-4 kit replenished in my Nova processor but I could just as easily use Kodak, or Fuji chemistry.

What you don't usually get is an original printed technical sheet for mixing etc, but the supplier will give you a photocopy instead, The chemistry is generally sold to minilabs in larger packs so the only difference is you're not buying in bulk.

Ian

pentaxuser · Jul 28, 2009

Tom Thanks I am processing with a Jobo CPE which uses only 140 mls per 35mm film so 7 films per litre which is 35 films per the 5 litres you mention so not sure where Firstcall's 60-80 films come from but not getting that many films from the kits isn't my real concern. It's simply getting through 35 films in the time that the developer lasts. However if you are still on a pack bought earlier in the year and it is still effective then maybe, just maybe, it would last long enough.

Ian Who are these retailers selling kits broken down from bulk supplies? Previously one suggestion was that low volume users armed with a couple of containers simply go into their local mini-lab and asked for it to be filled. A bit like the old jug and bottle service that pubs used to priovide for those wanting to drink at home :

Anyway I made some tentative enquiries with the only local mini-lab in town and discovered that its containers for its machine come in quite large custom made and shaped plastic bottles from Fuji which are then just pushed into a corresponding slot in the machine so this didn't seem to be a very fruitful avenue. Maybe the suggestor was thinking of a lab where the chemicals come in containers, lets say barrels from which the chems are decanted and poured into containers built into the machine . Maybe the latest machines have moved away from that system and the process machinery means that the old routine of turning up with a jug won't work.

Finally would these kits dispense less than the Fuji-Hunt kit which if I have understood Tom correctly is already down to 35 films?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Ian Grant · Jul 28, 2009

pentaxuser, I used to get mine from Jacobs in Birmingham or Leicester, but I've not done any colour work for about 4 years.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Jul 28, 2009

Unmixed color developer keeps in the original container for about 2 - 3 years. If split in a glovebox under nitrogen, it should last at least this long.

Mixed developer in a partially full container with an inert gas over the top as a blanket will last for up to 6 months.

PE

wogster · Jul 28, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Unmixed color developer keeps in the original container for about 2 - 3 years. If split in a glovebox under nitrogen, it should last at least this long.

Mixed developer in a partially full container with an inert gas over the top as a blanket will last for up to 6 months.

PE

Now that seems pretty reasonable, now comes the really, really, really hard question, is anybody splitting kits in Canada. Just what I need, an excuse to send my Koni TC off to Greg Weber for a rebuild, so I can use it for colour film

pentaxuser · Jul 28, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Unmixed color developer keeps in the original container for about 2 - 3 years. If split in a glovebox under nitrogen, it should last at least this long.

Mixed developer in a partially full container with an inert gas over the top as a blanket will last for up to 6 months.

PE

PE thanks for that good news answer. I am surprised that it should last this long as I think will several others here whose main concern like mine was short-life.

Just as a matter of interest if the dev life is that good why are manufacturers so conservative with storage life period in their literature thus driving small volume users into the hands of small kit and powder kit suppliers? This conservatism may not apply to Kodak. I don't know about Kodak information. Maybe in its information, it lists storage life as similar to your info.

What does splitting in a glovebox consist of? Is this the same as decanting a container into wine bags which are then placed in wineboxes with protectan(butane, I think) added to the neck of the bag?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Ian Grant · Jul 28, 2009

Some chemistry is sold in sort of wine bags in the first place

Ian

wogster · Jul 28, 2009

pentaxuser said:
PE thanks for that good news answer. I am surprised that it should last this long as I think will several others here whose main concern like mine was short-life.

Just as a matter of interest if the dev life is that good why are manufacturers so conservative with storage life period in their literature thus driving small volume users into the hands of small kit and powder kit suppliers? This conservatism may not apply to Kodak. I don't know about Kodak information. Maybe in its information, it lists storage life as similar to your info.

What does splitting in a glovebox consist of? Is this the same as decanting a container into wine bags which are then placed in wineboxes with protectan(butane, I think) added to the neck of the bag?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I think what PE means is a box similar to an infant isolation unit, where there are a pair of arm holes with gloves attached, that contains a pure nitrogen gas atmosphere inside, so that as the solutions are handled, oxygen can't get into them. If you pour from one bottle to another only the nitrogen can get mixed into the solutions, empty air space then consists of Nitrogen rather then oxygen.

I think this is an ideal way of doing this, but I would suspect that if Joe's Photo Shoppe is splitting minilab kits for customers, it's unlikely they would be willing to invest the money on the equipment and gas to do this. I think the ideal method is for Kodak to simply distribute smaller 1L and 2L kits for low volume users, or preferably unbundle the kits, so you can buy a 1L developer and a 2L or 5L bleach, fix, stabilizer. So the developer would come in a box that contains the 3 bottles, the bleach, fix and stabilizer, since they are single concentrates would come in individual sizes.

If I buy a 1L developer kit for say $5.99, and need to toss half, that's not a big deal, but needing to buy a 5 gallon everything kit for $100, and tossing most, is a big deal. A C41 fixer concentrate that can be used for B&W and E6 would be an ideal, unbundled, because a lot of people would simply buy a larger jug of this fixer, rather then keeping 3 smaller concentrate bottles of fixer around.

I've said it before, and will probably say it again, if they want film to survive, they should develop an E7 process that is essentially a C41 process, with a couple of extra steps. Publishing that you can use D76, XTOL, or some other generic B&W developer for E6, and just need to buy the fogging agent and the C41 chemicals would save a lot of home users a good hunk of change, and give better use of the chemistry. We need to face the fact that labs of all types will probably be severely reduced in the next 20 years, so a good home processing system will allow film to survive better,

Think about it, I can use my D76 for both B&W and E7, i use my C41 fixer for B&W, C41 and E7, I use my bleach for C41 and E7, I just need the fogging agent for E7, plus what I have on hand,

I am sure Ron will tell me why this would not be possible, but we shall see. The ROI may be low, but then the ROI on idled equipment, laid off employees and empty buildings is pretty low too.

Photo Engineer · Jul 28, 2009

Glove boxes can be found here:

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=0440838

Anyone splitting kits would need a nitrogen tank, regulator, tubing and glove box. To split without one would sacrifice shelf life.

Yeah Paul, I can tell you why your ideas for E7 would not work, but why bother. The results might be just good enough to make people rave over it and then where would I be? When in fact, the results would be pretty crappy compared to the real thing.

PE

John Shriver · Jul 28, 2009

I've also read that refrigerating the A, B, and C bottles of C-41 developer increases shelf life.

Tim Gray · Jul 28, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Yeah Paul, I can tell you why your ideas for E7 would not work, but why bother. The results might be just good enough to make people rave over it and then where would I be? When in fact, the results would be pretty crappy compared to the real thing.

PE

Is there any problem though with using Flexicolor fixer with B&W film?

wogster · Jul 28, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Glove boxes can be found here:

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=0440838

Anyone splitting kits would need a nitrogen tank, regulator, tubing and glove box. To split without one would sacrifice shelf life.

Yeah Paul, I can tell you why your ideas for E7 would not work, but why bother. The results might be just good enough to make people rave over it and then where would I be? When in fact, the results would be pretty crappy compared to the real thing.

PE

Well, I and others might be interested in why it would not work, or why the results couldn't be all that good.

Photo Engineer · Jul 28, 2009

C-41 fixer can be used for B&W but B&W fixers may not be suitable for color products due to pH effects on the dyes. Dye hues can vary with final pH and this can be a problem.

Paul;

Using D-76 for color products will cause problems due to the solvent effect of Sodium Sulfite and diffusion effects. It is not balanced for all 9 of the color emulsions. If you notice, the C-41 formulas are low in Sulfite compared to D-76. Remember that the film is now designed for the developer, not the reverse and this can lead to problems. All 9 emulsions in color film must reach an end point at 100 F and 3 m and 15 sec. D76 is designed for 68 F. Among other problems diffusion will rear its ugly head and mess things up royally.

So, you do what you wish, I will stick with a C-41 process or E-6 process.

And, you know that you were really asking for yourself as well as everyone else because you were just as clueless as everyone else might be. Don't try to fool me.

PE

wogster · Jul 28, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
C-41 fixer can be used for B&W but B&W fixers may not be suitable for color products due to pH effects on the dyes. Dye hues can vary with final pH and this can be a problem.

Paul;

Using D-76 for color products will cause problems due to the solvent effect of Sodium Sulfite and diffusion effects. It is not balanced for all 9 of the color emulsions. If you notice, the C-41 formulas are low in Sulfite compared to D-76. Remember that the film is now designed for the developer, not the reverse and this can lead to problems. All 9 emulsions in color film must reach an end point at 100 F and 3 m and 15 sec. D76 is designed for 68 F. Among other problems diffusion will rear its ugly head and mess things up royally.

So, you do what you wish, I will stick with a C-41 process or E-6 process.

And, you know that you were really asking for yourself as well as everyone else because you were just as clueless as everyone else might be. Don't try to fool me.

PE

Okay maybe not D76, there are B&W developers that are not solvent developers, so maybe not all B&W developers, but some could be used. I would think that this could be specified as to which developers would work and which would not.

As for fixer, the idea also was to use colour fixer for B&W, not the reverse. The real question though, how similar are the C41 and E6 colour processes. For example could E6 films be modified enough that E7 could use the same colour developer, bleach, fixer and stabilizer as C41.

I'll admit when it comes to chemistry, my education ended in high school, so I don't know as much as I could by a long shot.

Why use brand name process solutions with color films

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