It's a refuge.
@flavio81 To be fair to Fuji 1600, those scans were made in 1996 from prints produced by a chain store. I rescanned the prints about 5 years ago but don't have those files on my laptop...I suppose today I could scan the negatives if I dug them out
Yes, the grain appears much less on the prints. And I suspect that while the prints are quite good, the negs are even better.
Film can handle high ISO, and I am quite baffled by the assertion that it cannot. I've always been a fan of high speed films and would pick Fuji Press 800 as my favourite C41 film of all time.
Why do amateur radio operators still use International Morse Code? Why are new amateur radio operators learning Morse code which is no longer a requirement for licenses?
Absolutely. Colour "art" photographers like William Eggleston and Martin Parr understood that only medium format film could deliver the kind of seamless rendering they were looking for in a photographic print from a hand held camera. Once grain structures become evident, the medium intrudes into the illusion. There are a few exceptions (Fred Herzog comes to mind), people who worked on 35mm colour slide, but their output was generally reproduced in magazines, or printed small, or was photojournalistic in nature where different visual parameters apply. People working in advertising and fashion used high ISO colour film for dreamy effect, like Sarah Moon, but their general mood is monochromatic, not polychromatic.I agree. High ISO look yucky. But so too does high ISO film in my opinion. Delta 3200 (1000ISO film) looks very scrappy to me.
I could not agree more.Good morning, everyone. I have a spare two hours today, and I've had too much coffee. Going thru all the posts in this forum, some random thoughts came to mind.
There are some good, intelligent, rational, well thought-out arguments here for film, and a fair few for digital. Fair enough, we are a film forum. So a degree of well-intentioned bias against "the big bad D" is to be expected.
Some of us like film, some dislike digital, some like (or seem to dislike) both. Others like film more, like digital more, or like both equally. Each is different from the other and has its positives and negatives (pun intended). Know and learn both, but please, spare us the creating of fictitious arguments for or against either.
Digital is not crap. For color, it is now (and has been since the advent of high-quality cameras such as the Nikon D90 and D700 in 2008-2009) just as good as color negative or slide emulsions. Not to overlook, without the requirement of processing, mounting or fiddly printing.
I will never buy a 36.3MP FX-Format CMOS sensor however desirable this may be for rendering 69 shades of every color on the wheel, for the basic reason that, on a retirement income and preferring travel to collecting digital camera gear, I can't afford it. My current 10 to 12 MP Nikons do an adequate job for my needs. In the good old days, I used Panatomic-X film for almost all my photography, now and then Tri-X and, rarely, Super X. Now my D700 lets me select all these Eis and many more. Horses for courses.
Digital is less effort, but many digishooters have the regrettable habit of posting 1,257 shots of Baby Puss purring in a basket or 3,489 shots of the day at the beach with the grandsprogs. One friend put 14,000+ photos on his (boring) blog of his two weeks in Hawaii. Hasn't had any views and wonders why? A nice man but much too insecure to be told the truth... nobody cares. Ten or twenty shots, maybe. Thousands, go away!
As to what is the best cheese, well - what cheese do you like? Mousetrap or gorgonzola, an endless variety, in my case limited only by my budget, more than A$20 per kilogram is out price-wise, but with diligent shopping (I never cease to thank the gods of consumer heaven for having given us Aldi) I can often buy even the best and most expensive cheeses for much less than my price limit. The same applies to film and digicams.
Technology scares traditional analogers. I still have TIFFs I scanned in 2000 and I can easily retrieve and edit/print them. Hardware changes (often with improvements) with time. In sixteen years I've replaced all my image storage unitsls two times and am overdue for some new Western Digital portables. As my Italian hair stylist says about my reeding hairline, "is no-problema".
Overlooking the endless facile and poorly thought out arguments, I believe it is entirely possible that my grandkids' baby shots will be accessible in 2036, and with new technology, I or my son will easily produce film and paper images of my digisnaps. In this age, if there is a market for it, someone will invent it.
#37 has it pretty well right for me. Good and useful information. One of the best posts in the entire forum. Ditto #39. Sirius Glass has an incisive mind and is a fine communicator who makes us stop and ponder. Ditto Ditto #41, who always writes a wealth of interesting and thought-provoking information. #42 is the most apt one-liner, Alan always has the best good word for this particular moment.
If you prefer nice grain patterns, film is better. Grain is possible with digital, but with special software, usually a steep learning curve, and much fiddling on computers.
Ad nauseam can easily become ad nauseum and vice-versa...
Anyone who insists digi prints don't compare to analog doesn't know how to print, won't make the effort to learn to print properly, or may be color-blind.
Film does look different to digital. That's why I shoot color digital and black-and-white film. The tonal differences are obvious. I dislike scanning and allocate my po diligent care. I also have good enlargers and I enjoy my darkroom periods as precioumenttime away from the hurdy-gurdy of life's mundane demands.
Digital and film costs generally even out. Film and processing costs, true. Digital cameras with also reliable storage cards, a decent laptop and scanner and a good printer also cost, in fact heaps. Start upcosts for digital are high, for film and darkroom, usually less high, lots of used gear available OL. Balance our the two mediums and it all usually events out to quite close, unless you like to spend big on Leica monochromes or obscure yuppy emulsions and chemistry. Color neg films seem to me to be of the "one size fits all" variety. I've shot them all, and apart from slow or fast EI speeds, the results usually look the same. Only the color shift varies, but even then not by much.
To the "I disagree with this" posters, I will dare to say, please spare us the facile one-liners. Post your reasons. The "I just think that" comment are of little or no interest to anyone. Communicate!
I could go on, but this post would become a new complete post in itself. I could have stopped there, but of course I didn't...
Briefly briefly, why do I shoot film? I have the gear - my 1970s Nikkormats and my circa 2000 Contax Gs produce about equal results, the former are best for B&W and the latter ideal for color tones. I have the darkroom with two top of the range enlargers. Also a large fridge and a small freezer full of film. Films and chemistry are still available, though 120 film prices in AUS are now so high that I now seriously plan to give up MF.
Thank you all, for having given me so much good reading and such fun in responding.
All the arguments for film predicated on the appearance of pictures, resolution, grain, pixel count, tonal fidelity, etc miss the point and are ultimately doomed to failure.
For years photo-realist painters have been turning out works that look just like giant photographs.
Graphite pencil can be used to convincingly mimic black and white photographs.
Mezzotint was the first of many ingenious printing processes celebrated for their ability to deliver photograph-like pictures.
Digital picture-making can do anything including fashioning pictures that look like photographs.
...Painting can't do this. Drawing can't do this.
…For color, it is now (and has been since the advent of high-quality cameras such as the Nikon D90 and D700 in 2008-2009) just as good as color negative or slide emulsions …
My current 10 to 12 MP Nikons do an adequate job for my needs. In the good old days, I used Panatomic-X film for almost all my photography, now and then Tri-X and, rarely, Super X. Now my D700 lets me select all these Eis and many more. Horses for courses.
…As to what is the best cheese, well - what cheese do you like? Mousetrap or gorgonzola, an endless variety, in my case limited only by my budget, more than A$20 per kilogram is out price-wise, but with diligent shopping (I never cease to thank the gods of consumer heaven for having given us Aldi) I can often buy even the best and most expensive cheeses for much less than my price limit. The same applies to film and digicams.
Technology scares traditional analogers.
Ad nauseam can easily become ad nauseum and vice-versa...
…To the "I disagree with this" posters, I will dare to say, please spare us the facile one-liners. Post your reasons. The "I just think that" comment are of little or no interest to anyone. Communicate!.
+1 on that.Yes, my 1996 photos probably are Fuji Super HG, before Superia came along.
I don't think they look "scrappy" at all. To me, they capture the look and atmosphere of what that event was really like. The lights on the dry ice wold have been captured totally differently on digital.
It's not that digital is bad...it's been pretty good for at least a decade...but film and digital are different. and sometimes only film will do.
I like the cheese analogy. Sometimes I want a melty slice of gouda for my toast, and other times some vintage unpasteurised cheddar on a cracker...
Film users are defensive about their choices, nonetheless. This may be a reasonable reaction to the marketing that surrounds digital innovation, or it may be that film attracts more curmudgeons. I find that if people are results lead, intent on serious projects, books, exhibitions, the gear is one of the less important factors in making it, and that's true of film and digital. Equipment is one of the easiest aspects to acquire, even the best stuff might only require selling your best car for a small one, or going without meals in restaurants. By comparison going out in all weathers and travelling great distances, get cold and wet, and putting all your energies into creating a estimable body of work over a lifetime is the hard bit. That's why people focus on the gear and argue about the merits of this over that, making great photographs is much harder than quibbling over shutters and dynamic range.With the proliferation of digital from various camera styles and phones, to labs services that are geared toward them, since film has survived in that environment, it obviously serves a valid purpose, unique to each individual. No defense required. It's just that simple.
Absolutely. Colour "art" photographers like William Eggleston and Martin Parr understood that only medium format film could deliver the kind of seamless rendering they were looking for in a photographic print from a hand held camera. Once grain structures become evident, the medium intrudes into the illusion. There are a few exceptions (Fred Herzog comes to mind), people who worked on 35mm colour slide, but their output was generally reproduced in magazines, or printed small, or was photojournalistic in nature where different visual parameters apply. People working in advertising and fashion used high ISO colour film for dreamy effect, like Sarah Moon, but their general mood is monochromatic, not polychromatic.
Digital colour photography offers something close to colour film art photography, but as ever it depends on the execution. Eggleston reckoned his dye transfer prints cost him $500 each in the 1970s, and I assume Martin Parr has moved away from a Plaubel or a Mamiya for similar reasons, MF film is damned expensive to shoot in volume and quality finishers and hand printers are few and far between. If medium format digital cameras become more accessible (and ergonomic in point and shoot terms), we'll no doubt see a new colour aesthetic emerge that will give colour prints from film competition.
Black and white is different, IMO. It is immediately abstract, and the viewer is more accepting of further abstractions, like grain, contrast and focus compromises.
Film users are defensive about their choices, nonetheless.....
He shot 35mm colour in the early days, but his later work is mostly on a variety of medium format cameras, including a Mamiya Press. Eggleston is a camera magpie, rather like Araki, and there's a film of him with about 20 screw mount Leicas. He certainly shot colour 35mm, and definitely influenced the medium format reportage school that followed him.Mostly I see Eggleston shooting Leica cameras, but I've seen him with others. I think most of his famous and well known work was captured with the small format.
https://pleasurephoto.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/wiliam-eggleston-with-leica-camera.jpg
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324715704578481214024861412
That's what I said much earlier in the thread. I think it's a fear that someone will take film away if they don't defend it. This may or may not be a reasonable worry. There are certainly fewer films around, and some types, like Kodachrome and Polaroid, have completely disappeared. It may also become prohibitively expensive, and there are signs that this is happening in some cases (Fuji Chrome is getting that way), but I agree it won't disappear in my lifetime, though it may be pruned to a small number of manufacturers turning out a very few popular lines.How long will this last? It's pointless because it's endless. The world IS full of critics and new ones will continue to emerge.
Film works and always has. Digital won't change that. If you feel a (constant?) need to defend it, that's your prerogative. I'm content using film or both, with a film preference.
At the end of the day, what others think of your preferences don't make a hoot. Shoot it, enjoy it, and let everyone handle their personal problems. Your choice. Carry on!
He shot 35mm colour in the early days, but his later work is mostly on a variety of medium format cameras, including a Mamiya Press. Eggleston is a camera magpie, rather like Araki, and there's a film of him with about 20 screw mount Leicas. He certainly shot colour 35mm, and definitely influenced the medium format reportage school that followed him.
Some video here:Interesting. I didn't know that. I had seen references to him with Mamiya cameras, but never read enough about it. He must be better known for his use of Leica cameras for some other reason.
If I am sometimes defensive about my choice to use film....it is because there are people who tell me that I should not be using film.
When someone says high ISO film always produces poor, grainy, scrappy images.......given that I disagree, I am going to put forth an opposing view.
I am sure others feel the same.
But the bottom line for me, as someone who uses both film and digital, is that I find film more fun.
But the bottom line for me, as someone who uses both film and digital, is that I find film more fun.
Now about the question. Simply put, I like film because I like vintage mechanical devices, because I have to rely more on my knowledge, because It forces you to slow down and be more connected to what you are doing, and finally because of this (It's music to my ears).
Note: just for the records, I also like digital for different reasons.
These digital vs. film arguments always seem to come down to the participants trying to justify their choice to others. There is no need to do so
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