Why is the image not fading in the bleach bath?

I have a few packages of the discontinued Kodak Sepia II Warm Toner that I'm trying to use up. The problem is that the bleach bath is not washing away the image very much which makes it impossible to eyeball the change in the highlights for a split tone effect. I have used the bleach 1+1 and diluted it 1+2. I get a split toned effect, but I have to rely completely on timing the bleach bath stage (I can also achieve a full sepia tone). Instructions say to bleach for 6 to 8 minutes. I did a search on APUG for Kodak Sepia II and others report a very quick bleaching effect to the point where the bleach is diluted 1+10 for more control. I've used two packages and get the same results. I have also experimented with Ilford WT FB and Oriental RC papers but get the same reaction. I have used Berg Sepia Toner on RC paper and the image fades in seconds. Can anyone shed some light on what is happening? Is this normal for Sepia II? Abnormal?

Materials & procedure: Ilford MG IV FB matte double weight paper developed in Ilford MG (1+9) for 2 min; stop bath; two fixer baths (Ilford Rapid) 30 sec each; wash in print washer 5 min; wash in Kodak HCA (1+4) 10 min with intermittent agitation; 5 min final wash before toning. Papers test negative for residual hypo using a 10% Selenium solution.

I'm not really sure what dilution of bleach you have used on what kind of papers, but yes, all papers have different characteristics in the bleach, and fiber papers generally take longer.

If you are getting no bleaching at all, then either your print has already been toned or something is wrong with the chemistry.

If you are able to mix your own KBr- and ferri, then you know what has gone into it, and can adjust accordingly.

You mention that you are split toning. If you are starting with selenium toner, then you might be leaving the prints in the selenium toner too long.

If the image is fully selenium toned, then the bleach won't work very well.

Does the bleach work quickly if you don't use the selenium toner first?

MattKing said:

You mention that you are split toning. If you are starting with selenium toner, then you might be leaving the prints in the selenium toner too long.

If the image is fully selenium toned, then the bleach won't work very well.

Does the bleach work quickly if you don't use the selenium toner first?

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I tone with the sepia first (bleach>short wash>toner), then selenium; so it isn't the selenium.

Rich Ullsmith said:

I'm not really sure what dilution of bleach you have used on what kind of papers, but yes, all papers have different characteristics in the bleach, and fiber papers generally take longer.

If you are getting no bleaching at all, then either your print has already been toned or something is wrong with the chemistry.

If you are able to mix your own KBr- and ferri, then you know what has gone into it, and can adjust accordingly.

Click to expand...

I have used the bleach full strength (prepackaged bleach in 950ml water) and diluted (in 1900ml water). Even full strength bleach doesn't show a visible fading of the image.

I have used Ilford MG IV FB matte, Ilford WT FB glossy, and Oriental RC glossy. Image still doesn't fade. Papers are processed normally (see description in original post). Sepia is the first toner to touch the papers (bleach>short wash>toner and later tone in selenium). It's not that there is no bleaching taking place because I can target the highlights, midtones, & shadows separately. The issue is that I can't do it visually because the image doesn't fade noticeably. I have to use test strips, time the bleach bath, and examine the test strips.

I have the chemicals to mix my own variable sepia toner, but I want to use the Kodak Sepia II up first. I have 2 or 3 more packages.

All I can tell you is, that from all the papers I have used up to now (Agfa MCC, Kentmere Fineprint and the Ilford FB papers), Ilfords standard MGIV paper is by far the slowest bleaching paper (maybe 5 to 10 slower than most other papers). Not the Warmtone variant by the way, which bleaches much quicker in my experience. But you also report slow bleaching on the Warmtone variant and other papers, so maybe the bleach is bad. I am not sure as to what processes can degrade powdered ferri (exposure to air?, light?), but maybe someone else can shed some light about that.

Lastly, like Rich said, FB papers are a bit slower in bleaching compared to RC.

I am happy to report that with the help of Andrew Toews at Photo Central in Winnipeg, I have a solution to my problem. The culprit seems to be the water used to mix the bleach. I used distilled water for the toner but tap water for the bleach. Andrew suggested using distilled water for the bleach and voila! I use distilled water for a few chemicals especially developers, but from now on I'm going to use it for all chemicals.

My experience is that the bleach often does not completely erase the image. Different bleaches have greater and lesser effects, and that affects the final image tone. What you are getting is probably what Kodak intended for the product.