Why does it seem like there are no cheap & decent quality interchangeable lens rangefinders?

mitchamtuell · May 11, 2018

I get most of my cameras cheap on local buy/sell sites - sometimes in need of repair that I have fun doing myself. They're all SLRs except for my Yashica 124G TLR, but I've been getting it into my head that I should get a rangefinder. I've looked at the Yashica Electro 35 and Lynx 14, and the Canonet series, as well as some old Voigtlanders and Retinas. They seem great, but what I really want is a simple manual exposure (meter optional), small and light, interchangeable lens camera. It's bizarre because there are so many very affordable SLRs that fit that description: Pentax, Ricoh, Minolta, some Canons and Nikons and Olympuses... They can all be had in decent condition for cheap, and have lots of lenses to choose from. Not the best SLRs ever made, but absolutely respectable and serviceable cameras.

Why does it seem like the only rangefinders like this are out of my price range? All the Germans: Leica M, Voigtlander Bessa R, Contax G... I've heard about the Soviet FED, Zorki, and Kiev, but they seem to have very dubious reputations. Were there not ever decent quality Japanese-made ones like the bazillion SLRs out there?

Thanks!

Paul Howell · May 11, 2018

In the day there were a few rangefinders with interchangeable lens at the low end, Agus made a 35mm and 100mm for the C lineup, Kodak made a few models for the armature market. there were also a couple of Japanese companies, but as low price and low quality most did not survive. Leica, Contax, Voightlander, Nikon and Canon were all pro level cameras, well made with great lens, prices have held over the decades in some part due to collectors. The Soviet rangefinders can be had a good price, and can be improved by a tech, but build quality is not good. Japanese SLRs were made in large numbers, all the makers made various levels, Nikon the Nikormate, Canon the Ftb, with good build quality.

Not knowing what your price range is hard to say, a Canon P is reasonable, you might be able to find a Minolta with 39mm screw mount, or a worn Leica F.

slackercrurster · May 11, 2018

OP, my complaint too. Just how it is in 2018. Not popular enuf.

Ko.Fe. · May 11, 2018

RF is even less popular than SLR is. Now and for very long time already.

First of all, LTM Leica are easily available and at not crazy price. And those are original RF cameras. They still serviced by paid technicians and sold after CLA.
If you are as handy as you mentioned, fear not of plain Zorki. They are easy to work on, well documented in English and not expensive to get. Buy just two, plus shutter cloth from Japan. I fixed two, trashed one - it had bad RF from the factory and using fourth now. If they are CLA'd, they are pleasure to operate RF. Just add external VF to make it even better. Same for Barnacks.
I have Leica 50mm bright finder and ex XA 35 mm VF. I also have 20 mm Russar VF, but no lens yet.
Canon P is next in affordability, very advanced and still available in working condition RF.
Working Nikons are not very expensive and still gets serviced these days.
So, you have plenty of choices.
And if you look how much new Bessa cost now comparing to new Leica, it is cheap while with decent quality.

Marcelo Paniagua · May 11, 2018

Setting aside current prices (those are related to offer/demand issues), interchangeable lens rangefinders are less common because it is more expensive to design and made than the fixed lens ones.

Lens coupling mechanism and focusing mechanics is harder to design and make. Also, also related to this complexity, many cameras with such specs stopped working years ago and where scrapped. Sometimes they just needed adjustment but lack of available technician for those cameras lead to them been lost, so fewer are available.

That makes the available interchangeable lens rf harder to find. I myself got a couple of Kodak and Voightlander rf but they are expensive and hard to adjust/repair, so that make them unpopular.

Best regards.

Marcelo

Marcelo Paniagua · May 11, 2018

Ko.Fe. said:
RF is even less popular than SLR is. Now and for very long time already.

First of all, LTM Leica are easily available and at not crazy price. And those are original RF cameras. They still serviced by paid technicians and sold after CLA.
If you are as handy as you mentioned, fear not of plain Zorki. They are easy to work on, well documented in English and not expensive to get. Buy just two, plus shutter cloth from Japan. I fixed two, trashed one - it had bad RF from the factory and using fourth now. If they are CLA'd, they are pleasure to operate RF. Just add external VF to make it even better. Same for Barnacks.
I have Leica 50mm bright finder and ex XA 35 mm VF. I also have 20 mm Russar VF, but no lens yet.
Canon P is next in affordability, very advanced and still available in working condition RF.
Working Nikons are not very expensive and still gets serviced these days.
So, you have plenty of choices.
And if you look how much new Bessa cost now comparing to new Leica, it is cheap while with decent quality.

I think OP was referring to $20.00 cheap range

Agree about zorky/fed cameras.

Marcelo

markjwyatt · May 11, 2018

$59. Kiev 4a Type 2. You can argue whether it is decent quality. So far looks good to me.

Chan Tran · May 11, 2018

The reason is that the cheap and decent cameras are generally Japanese. The Japanese camera manufacturers tried to compete with Leica in the rangefinder market but they couldn't win. They found out that they could surpass Leica by making SLR so they concentrated on making SLR and left the RF market to Leica. So you see plenty of cheap and decent SLR but not rangefinder.

Theo Sulphate · May 11, 2018

mitchamtuell said:
... Were there not ever decent quality Japanese-made ones like the bazillion SLRs out there?
...

The Nikon S2 is less expensive than the SP and is of high quality. The Leica IIIa is probably the least expensive of the Barnack Leicas.

Dan Fromm · May 11, 2018

OP, you came to the party a little late. Several centuries ago, when the great transition to SLRs was underway, decent thread mount Leicas could be had from NYC camera dealers for around $20-25. This in the late '60s. My brother was then chasing a BFA photog. at Ohio University. He had a small pile of thread mount Leicas, all bought from NYC dealers. Leica lenses for them were inexpensive too. But and however the dollar was, in general, worth more then.

mitchamtuell · May 11, 2018

Hmmmm I guess all these are basically the answers I expected. It seems that interchangeable lens rangefinders just never had an amateur market the way that SLRs did. The amateurs were satisfied with fixed lens I guess - maybe I should be too haha.

I'm half convinced to take a risk and buy a Soviet one off eBay. That Kiev 4a is looking pretty nice...

ransel · May 11, 2018

Paul Howell said:
...a Canon P is reasonable...

+1 - I think I paid about $125 or so for mine, shipped from Japan - most have wrinkled shutter curtains due to the use of stainless steel I believe, but it doesn't seem to affect function - I have had mine for 2-3 years and I just love it. The rangefinder is very easy to adjust if it gets out of whack - you don't have to take the top off the camera. I keep a Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 on mine.

mitchamtuell · May 11, 2018

ransel said:
+1 - I think I paid about $125 or so for mine, shipped from Japan - most have wrinkled shutter curtains due to the use of stainless steel I believe, but it doesn't seem to affect function - I have had mine for 2-3 years and I just love it. The rangefinder is very easy to adjust if it gets out of whack - you don't have to take the top off the camera. I keep a Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 on mine.

Wow, that's a really pretty camera. Basically what I'm looking for. Looks like it will be tough to find one quite that cheap (esp. with a lens), but it's on my radar now.

Kodachromeguy · May 11, 2018

Chan Tran said:
The reason is that the cheap and decent cameras are generally Japanese. The Japanese camera manufacturers tried to compete with Leica in the rangefinder market but they couldn't win. They found out that they could surpass Leica by making SLR so they concentrated on making SLR and left the RF market to Leica. So you see plenty of cheap and decent SLR but not rangefinder.

Chan, I have a different interpretation. The Japanese optical companies did compete very successfully with the German companies in the interchangeable rangefinder market. The Nikon S4 and SP and the Canon 7 were every bit as precise as a Leica. But where the Japanese companies showed their brilliance was in developing reflex cameras that were easy to manufacture, had superb lenses, and could attract customers in the USA (the largest market in the 1950s and 1960s). German companies such as Exacta had been selling reflex cameras for years, but just could not compete in refinement and convenience for the user (such as the instant-return mirror). Zeiss' uber-complicated Contarex essentially bankrupted the company. The SLR camera swept the amateur market in the 1960s, and the Japanese companies discontinued their rangefinder models to concentrate of SLRs.

Back to the original question: where are there inexpensive rangefinder cameras? In my observation, they are either beat-up and cheap or in good working condition and expensive. You will see plenty of recommendations to buy one of the screw-mount Leicas. Be aware of repair/overhaul costs. My IIIC cost $300 for service, and it had lived a reasonably good life in climate-controlled homes. Here is mine:
https://worldofdecay.blogspot.com/2017/12/good-things-in-small-packages-leica-iiic.html

If you want something new enough to be (hopefully) trouble-free, try a Voigtlander Bessa rangefinder (made in Japan): https://www.cameraquest.com/voigtrwhich.htm

Pentode · May 11, 2018

mitchamtuell said:
I'm half convinced to take a risk and buy a Soviet one off eBay. That Kiev 4a is looking pretty nice...

Despite some claims here, the Kiev 4a is a good camera. Is it a great camera? Nah, probably not... but it's really pretty good and very pleasant to shoot with.
The stock Jupiter 8M lens is, in most cases, excellent and if you find good examples of Jupiter 9 and 12 lenses you'll have a very good outfit for not a lot of money.
My 4a is quite the little battle tank. Small and quiet and very, very solid.

The key to buying a Kiev - or any Soviet RF or lens - is to buy from a reputable dealer who only sells CLA'd cameras. Fedka, Oleg (OK Vintage Camera) and an Ebay seller called Hero4G are the dealers who spring to mind immediately. They all offer warrantees or return periods on their cameras and lenses and they have all been in business long enough to have reputations for being honest, stand-up guys. I live close enough to Fedka (Yuri) that I was able to meet him at a Starbucks and buy my Kiev in person so I can vouch for him being a very nice, honest guy. Buying from any of those dealers is really not much of a risk at all. They want you to be happy with your purchase and they'll work hard to keep you as a customer (let's face it; at $50 per camera, more or less, there's a good chance you'll buy more!).

For even cheaper prices, Alex-photo and Asterliks are two more Ebay dealers who have a good reputation for honesty and accurate descriptions but they don't CLA their stuff so it's a bit more of a gamble. There are some other good, honest dealers on the Bay as well, but I can't think of them now. There are several threads on the topic, though.

In any case and regardless of dealer, we're talking about cameras that are anywhere from around 40 to around 70 years old. Stuff can definitely go wrong! The difference is that these dealers will be honorable and not leave you hanging out to dry. FSU cameras may not be as sleek as Japanese cameras from the same era and the fit and finish may not be as well executed but, if they're maintained, they're still serious cameras that can definitely get the job done.

dourbalistar · May 11, 2018

OP, what price range would you consider to be "cheap"? <$50, <$100...?

Kodachromeguy · May 11, 2018

Pentode said:
Despite some claims here, the Kiev 4a is a good camera. Is it a great camera? Nah, probably not... but it's really pretty good and very pleasant to shoot with.
The stock Jupiter 8M lens is, in most cases, excellent and if you find good examples of Jupiter 9 and 12 lenses you'll have a very good outfit for not a lot of money.
My 4a is quite the little battle tank. Small and quiet and very, very solid.
.

I agree, the Kiev 4a is a nice machine. Short story: in 1978, my wife and I took a tour (with a Greek group, oddly) to Moscow and Leningrad. This was the old Soviet Union, when Brezhnev was in charge. At that time, to gain foreign currency, we westerners were taken to special stores where Soviet citizens were not allowed to shop. I recall eying a Kiev 4a or a similar model. As I recall, the price was about $100. These were supposed to be special export models, so supposedly made with better quality control. Who knows if that was true. I passed, but looking back, I should have bought one as a unique souvenir of our trip. One day (you all know that one day thing...) I need to scan those negatives and slides.

darinwc · May 11, 2018

Quite honestly, you haven't been looking hard enough.
Werra iii, Aires v, Olympus ace, Kiev, zorki, fed, retina iic/iiic,iiis, vitessa t, Argus.
For a little more there is Canon, Nikon, Contax (actually quite reasonable imho), leotax, nicca, Minolta 35, and the modern Voigtlander t.

For around 100, I think your best bet is a fed or Kiev from a reputable dealer.
For around 200, a Canon P with 50mm f1.8 is a fantastic deal that rivals a Leica m3 in many ways.

darinwc · May 11, 2018

One thing to consider is that most rangefinders are much older than most slr's.
In the 60s, everyone except Leica dropped the idea of a rangefinder and went to slr.

Also, the only wide angle lenses available cheap are the Russian lenses. At least for the contax/nikon/leica mounts. A Canon, Nikon, or Voigtlander 35mm will likely cost you 200-300.

If you want a fun rangefinder with a great viewfinder and sharp lens, get a Canon ql17 g3. If you want a small camera with interchangeable lenses, get a Pentax me. It is about the size of a Leica iiic.

dxqcanada · May 11, 2018

I blame the escalated price on mirrorless cameras ... mainly because these old lenses will be used on modern digital cameras ... so having both film and digital medium is popular.

mshchem · May 12, 2018

I picked up a late Kodak Retina, recently CLAed. Rangefinder bright, better than most Retinas , really clean, no silly meter. Perfect Xenar. I have yet to put film through it but they are outstanding cameras if maintained and in good shape. I gave 40 bucks ,the fellow wanted rid of it. I'm planning to use as a "vest pocket " camera. Folded it fits neatly in a jacket pocket.

markjwyatt · May 12, 2018

mshchem said:
I picked up a late Kodak Retina, recently CLAed. Rangefinder bright, better than most Retinas , really clean, no silly meter. Perfect Xenar. I have yet to put film through it but they are outstanding cameras if maintained and in good shape. I gave 40 bucks ,the fellow wanted rid of it. I'm planning to use as a "vest pocket " camera. Folded it fits neatly in a jacket pocket.

Looks like they have a decent baseline for the rangefinder also (looking at Retina II series for instance).

ciniframe · May 12, 2018

Just get a fixed lens RF. If you buy one with interchangeable lenses you will probably only be able to afford one lens anyway. My favorite is the Olympus RC but you should decide for yourself. Trouble is it's hard to compare cameras anymore. What I mean is most folks are not located where they can walk into a camera store that has a good stock and variety of used cameras. So, your stuck trying to evaluate what to purchase by asking other peoples opinions. Well I guess that is just the way the market is now.

As an aside the Ricoh 500G is a sleeper, and can be found for a reasonable price (although I notice prices are going up). If I didn't already have a nice RC and wanted to save money that is a model I'd consider.

Ko.Fe. · May 12, 2018

Marcelo Paniagua said:
I think OP was referring to $20.00 cheap range

Agree about zorky/fed cameras.

Marcelo

I read "some Nikon,Canon and Olyes" SLRs in OP. He calls them cheap and not the best SLRs. Working Nikon FG-20 cost me 50$ in 2017. I guess, OP buys them for 20$ in according to price condition. Some repair skills were mentioned.
Kievs, FEDs, Zorki as is for 20$ are possible!

Ko.Fe. · May 12, 2018

darinwc said:
One thing to consider is that most rangefinders are much older than most slr's.
In the 60s, everyone except Leica dropped the idea of a rangefinder and went to slr.
....

FED factory was making RF cameras until nineties.

Why does it seem like there are no cheap & decent quality interchangeable lens rangefinders?

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