Why Did My TF-5 Fix Change Color?

marcmarc · Oct 25, 2009

Hi Everyone,

I used to use TF-4 but when I saw TF-5 on the shelf at Freestyle last week, I thought I'd give it a try. I mixed 4 oz of fix to 12 oz of distilled water and and poured it into a glass jar with screw top lid. That was three days ago. I fixed three rolls of Pan F+ over the course of these three days. This morning I noticed that the fix had turned a amber color. I know that in some cases fix that changes color is a sign it's going bad but only after three days and three rolls of film? Any other users out there have similar results? BTW, it doesn't smell any different then when I first mixed the working solution. I'll do a film leader test later but for now I'm hesitant to use it regardless.

Thanks,
Marc

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2009

Marc;

There are many threads out there on color changes in processing chemistry due to the removal of absorber dyes from the films. This fix is very efficient in removing those dyes. But, I won't rule out another source. If your wash or stop between the developer and the fix is not sufficient, carryover of developer into the fix can cause yellowing. I should add that this is NOT good and can cause problems. So, if you are not using a good rinse or a stop after the development step, that might be another source of the problem.

PE

marcmarc · Oct 25, 2009

Thanks P.E. I use two water rinses, a minute each with constant agitation. I've never seen this with T-F4 using the same method.

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2009

Is it running water? That is suggested for both TF-4 and TF-5. Also, TF-5 has a different pH than TF-4 and therefore some dyes will behave differently.

PE

marcmarc · Oct 25, 2009

No, I pour 16oz of distilled water (at 68 degrees) into the tank, agitate for a minute, dump and another 16oz of water goes into the tank for another minute of agitation. Then I dump that and fix. I never knew running water was suggested. I'm somewhat reluctant to try this since I'm in LA and running water from the tap can be in the high 70's and I'm concerned about what effect such a temperature change will have on the film. Right now my tap water is 76 degrees.

Anyway, I just clipped a piece of Pan F+ and dropped it into the jar of fix. I took just over three minutes to completely clear. With TF-4 my film usually cleared between 30 seconds and a minute depending on how many rolls have gone through it. Since fix is inexpensive, I generally run six rolls through a batch of working solution before mixing up a fresh one. I also pour my fix back into the jar through a coffee filter after each use. I don't know for certain if this is necessary, but I've read some photographers do it.

I might add to that my bottle of TF-5 has a stronger odor then TF-4. I thought TF-5 was supposed to be odorless, but it has a distinct smell, not ammonia but more like a slight vinegar smell.

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2009

You appear to be carrying too much developer over to the fix. TF-5 is nearly odorless and should stay that way if the rinse is proper after development and if the drain is proper. The fix times I get here with most films is identical to TF-4 or better.

Here are the film instructions from this address: http://www.photoformulary.com/uploads/TF-5 instructions.pdf

1- Develop the film as usual.

2- Rinse with 68° F running water for 1 minute or use an acid stop bath.

3- Fix T-Max film for 6 minutes, with 5 inversions once a minute; or fix for 4
minutes with 30 seconds of agitation per minute. With other films, fix only 3 to
4 minutes.

4- Note: Most of the magenta stain should be removed from the film; the rest of
the stain will be removed in the water wash.

5- Wash the film in 68° F running water for 5 minutes.

These are recommended for both fixers.

PE

marcmarc · Oct 25, 2009

Thanks P.E. I still don't see how this is happening now with my first use of TF-5 but never with TF-4. Nothing in my process has changed except for the fix. In fact for about a year I used only one rinse, but then went to two. I can see where a running water rinse would be ideal, but as I mentioned, my tap water rarely gets that low. Installing some kind of temp control to my tap might work if I could do this without having to mess around with the plumbing since I live in an apartment. I checked some negatives going back to 2005 when I first started doing my own processing and so far they look fine; no discoloring.

As to the smell, this vintager like odor is coming from the stock solution in the bottle. I noticed it when I first opened the bottle and now it's stronger. This was my first concern since TF-4 never really seemed to have much odor at all. I wondered how TF-5 was described as odorless when it smelled worse then TF-4. Between the smell, the color change, and the long fixing after three rolls, all I can think of is that I mixed the 1:3 working solution incorrectly, or my bottle just somehow is a bad one in the bunch. Whatever the case, I'll take it back to Freestyle tomorrow for an exchange. In the meantime unless I can figure an easy way to get a steady flow of 68 degree water from my tap, I'll add a third one minute water rinse and dump before fixing.

Regards,

Marc

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2009

Marc;

TF-4 smells like ammonia and gets a slight bit stronger with use if you use a water rinse. TF-5 should have a faint odor of vinegar which should vanish with use, and should never smell like ammonia. If you use a stop bath with either fixer, you will notice a slight odor of vinegar in both.

As for the color, I did mention that dyes and other chemicals have different colors at different pH values and so you may have been doing the exact same thing, and it might be right, but the color is all that has changed. That may be the only difference. As for fix times, the fixer seems to be performing up to specs if it fixes in the 4 minutes given above in my last post, and if it washes in 5 minutes.

But, since fixing and washing are both dependant on water supply, we suggest in the instructions that you test to assure yourself that fixation and washing are complete using your conditions. I would bet that if you run the tests you would find that both fixing and washing are complete as specified and if you use it to your normal capacity, it would work as specified.

However, you have to do what is right for you. I wish you the best and if I can help, call on me either here in a note, via e-mail or via the Formulary. After all, I want to see this get off to a good start too, and this is the first "event" after nearly 2 years of testing and trials with other people.

PE

Sal Santamaura · Oct 25, 2009

Will TF-4 be discontinued?

Ron, do you know whether The Formulary will continue to offer TF-4? I don't mind shaking it up and appreciate all that buffer. My printing situation here doesn't permit a running water rinse, so I've done the following for years:

* Developer
* Plain water (in tray) rinse
* One minute in TF-4 1:3 in tray
* Another one minute in TF-4 in a second tray
* Wash [upstairs in a bathroom] for 60 minutes in a Cascade washer (250 ml / minute flow)

I usually dump and replace the plain water rinse tray contents every 10 or so 8x10s. This has worked great; appropriate fix test results and barely any ammonia smell -- I mix with distilled.

Thanks in advance.

marcmarc · Oct 25, 2009

Thanks P.E. I've always enjoyed reading your posts on other topics. Your knowledge and generosity are much appreciated here on apug.

Photo Engineer · Oct 25, 2009

Sal;

There are absolutely no plans to discontinue TF-4. The Formulary is NOT Kodak. .

Bud, Bill and I see 2 markets and this thread is a good indicator of that wisdom. There will be differences of work flow, opinion, results due to local conditions and needs.

Marc;

I will be here because I want analog to prosper, not me! I am emphatic about that! Bill and I are trying to supply a series of formulas for the 21st century. If there are growing pains, so be it!

PE

brucemuir · Oct 26, 2009

Can I ask what the advantages/differences between TF-4 and TF-5?
I'm about to order some new fix so I could use this knowledge.

Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Oct 26, 2009

Bruce;

TF-5 is intended to be an odorless fixer with a near neutral pH that has all of the properties of TF-4 but does not have any precipitate in the container. It should have all of the TF-4 properties.

It is also intended to be more economical.

If you go to the Formulary web site, you can read both this information and more on dilution factors and use, and you can download the instruction sheet to read.

PE

squinonescolon · Oct 26, 2009

I should add that I used TF-5 for the first time this weekend, and it worked as advertised for me, it's fantastic as far as I'm concerned.
Best,
Steven

Photo Engineer · Oct 26, 2009

Thanks Steven.

PE

Formulary/Bud Wilson · Oct 27, 2009

will TF-4 be discontinued?

Sal Santamaura said:
Ron, do you know whether The Formulary will continue to offer TF-4? I don't mind shaking it up and appreciate all that buffer. My printing situation here doesn't permit a running water rinse, so I've done the following for years:

* Developer
* Plain water (in tray) rinse
* One minute in TF-4 1:3 in tray
* Another one minute in TF-4 in a second tray
* Wash [upstairs in a bathroom] for 60 minutes in a Cascade washer (250 ml / minute flow)

I usually dump and replace the plain water rinse tray contents every 10 or so 8x10s. This has worked great; appropriate fix test results and barely any ammonia smell -- I mix with distilled.

Thanks in advance.

TF-4 will not be discontinued or changed in any way. TF-4 is a very successful product and used by many. The response to TF-5 has already been very good and should become a standard in the industry. Our thanks to Photo Engineer and Bill Troop for another well designed formulation.
Super Fix is on the way and we will introduce it to go with our free freight in December.
Bud Wilson
Photographers Formulary

Sal Santamaura · Oct 27, 2009

Formulary/Bud Wilson said:
TF-4 will not be discontinued or changed in any way...

Thanks for confirming that Bud. Your participation and products are appreciated.

jmcd · Dec 2, 2010

Today I mixed my first batch of TF-5. Up to this point I have been using TF-4 to fix my film.

The clear time of these two fixers in my initial tests seems to vary by a factor of three, and I wonder if this is normal. If I clear a leader of FP4+ in fresh TF-4, it takes about 20 seconds; in TF-5 this takes about 60 seconds. Has anyone else had similar results?

Photo Engineer · Dec 2, 2010

JMCD;

Please look at the specs for both fixers as published by the Formulary. When you run tests on the fixers, you will find that both of them meet the published optimum fix times which are actually the same for both products when used with the same film or paper. This is a case where 2x the time to clear is not always correct BTW, and this is due to the nature of modern films with high iodide and layered dye sensitization.

See the thread on pink stain for more information. Kodak has acknowledged the pink stain problem and I find that many modern products vary in fix RATE with different fixers but they eventually pass through the same point (if the fix is designed correctly) of proper fixation and that is what we all want.

PE

jmcd · Dec 2, 2010

Thanks for the informative reply, PE.

thisismyname09 · Dec 3, 2010

Formulary/Bud Wilson said:
Super Fix is on the way and we will introduce it to go with our free freight in December.
Bud Wilson
Photographers Formulary

I remember reading a few posts about this Super Fix a while ago; is it the same extremely fast fixing formula PE was working on since then?

Curt · Dec 3, 2010

Is it always advisable to make the stock with distilled water and what's the shelf life of TF5 as a stock fixer? I love TF4 and was making my order list tonight which includes TF5. The Formulary is fantastic and we are lucky to have them.

Curt

Sirius Glass · Dec 3, 2010

marcmarc said:
I never knew running water was suggested. I'm somewhat reluctant to try this since I'm in LA and running water from the tap can be in the high 70's and I'm concerned about what effect such a temperature change will have on the film. Right now my tap water is 76 degrees.

I live in Los Angeles and I use tap water for mixing the chemicals and to wash the film. The local water has never caused a problem.

Steve

JLP · Dec 3, 2010

I have used TF4 for a few years and have always liked it. Working solution seems to last forever. When i ran out of TF4 a few months ago i thought i should try TF5 and bought two 1 Qt bottles. I have now used it, it did not take long because when first mixed it does not last very long. Even freshly mixed i only managed to fix maybe 5 to 8 8x10 sheets before the film would no longer clear (TMY) i always mix to 1L working solution.
In other words i was very disapointed with TF5 and have gone back to TF4 again.

Photo Engineer · Dec 3, 2010

Jan;

See the comments on the Kodak reference I gave in the "pink stain" thread. Some more recent films are difficult to clear of silver and sensitizing dyes. Kodak suggests longer fix and wash times in the reference I gave. Also, as for "lasting". There is shelf life and capacity to consider. Kodak has noted that capacity is diminished with some fixers with modern films, and I have addressed that here. The high iodide and high level of sensitizing dyes stress all fixers but each is affected differently by different films.

As for shelf life, I have samples of TF-5 that are 5 years old (stock and working solution) in partially full bottles, and I have placed it in trays and allowed it to evaporate and then have reconstituted it and kept on using it.

Curt, Steve;

All of the tests were done with tap water here to be as stressful as possible. However, DW is a good choice. The efficiency and capacity of a fixer is often dependent on water supply. Calcium and Magnesium ions, found in hard waters will slow down both fixing and washing and will lower the capacity of a fix.

PE

Why Did My TF-5 Fix Change Color?

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