Why did Kodachrome fail in the end?

Ian Grant

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Your grand narrative doesn't address the basic facts.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Kodachrome was one of the best transparency films made, particularly K25, It just wasn't the most practical particularly for those outside the US. Kodak had the monopoly on processing which was slow, in the professional world the vast majority of clients wanted their transparencies the next day, although that wasn't the case with many photojournalists.

A second factor was most professional work outside journalism and some fashion work was medium and large format and so Kodachrome wasn't an option until the short lived 120 Kodachrome was released.

If Kodak had release 120 Kodachrome very much earlier, as well as the Kodachrome 200, and address the processing issue so that there was a fast turn around regardless of where you were located then things could have been quite different.

Ian
 

Xmas

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No sale

An E6 lab was cheaper than a Kodachrome lab.
If you had a deadline E6 or Pola was the only choice.
E6 in turn is down in the canvas taking a count.
 

MattKing

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"It was a shatterproof window through which I could look back in time as if it was the present." — accozzaglia



Austria, c.1953
Kodachrome-X

I currently believe this to be the only known color photograph of my late father from before I was born. He would have been 22 years old in this picture. A simple snapshot, not terribly technically proficient, that has become priceless with the slow but inexorable passage of time.

Without the longevity and brilliance of Kodachrome, I would have only vague black-and-white hints as to what he truly looked like in his youth. For generations of amateur and professional photographers alike Kodachrome was the way America made its own self-portrait. A gigantic aggregate selfie, if you will, spanning decades and composed of literally millions of individual exposures.



With the loss of Kodachrome, nothing like that will ever happen again.

By only seeing the light through the hardened eyes of commercialism, several in this thread have, I fear, completely lost the magic of what is really going on with this whole photography thing. Caught up as they are/were with deadlines, and prices, and turn-around times, and markets, and customers, and returns-on-investment, and yes, a pervasive cynicism, they may have unwittingly abdicated their ability to comprehend the subtle layers of nuance implicit in the above quote.

And that's what I find to be the greatest sadness about this thread...



Ken
 
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MattKing

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My late mom, likely in 1951 - one of only a handful of faded Kodachrome slides I've seen:

 

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railwayman3

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If Kodak had release 120 Kodachrome very much earlier, as well as the Kodachrome 200, and address the processing issue so that there was a fast turn around regardless of where you were located then things could have been quite different.

Ian

Agreed. I'd guess that it was professional use of Kodachrome that was never really addressed....a reliable process-in-a-few hours service was needed to offer an attractive and viable option to E6. Amateurs could perhaps be more patient, but I can remember when photographic club friends and I would shoot Kodachrome over a w/e, mail to Box 14 on a Monday, and the slides would be reliable back by Thursday at the latest, in time for the club meeting that evening. When the time got up to 10-14 days, even the most patient of my friends started checking out Fuji film.....
 
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My late mom, likely in 1951 - one of only a handful of faded Kodachrome slides I've seen

Did this slide see a large amount of projection over its lifetime?

As I recall, my parents never owned a slide projector. So all of my dad's Kodachrome slides were dark-stored in one of those all metal slide storage trays with a locking lid. They weren't temperature and humidity controlled. They just sat in a closet. But they were in the dark.

(I am always amazed at how wonderfully thin and healthy people from that generation looked compared to people today. I see the same thing in movies from that era as well. Photographs truly as windows into the past.)

Ken
 

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Complex chemistry and it does not scan all that well with D ICE. But I have to admit that I love the look of Kodachrome!
 

Ian Grant

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I only knew one professional photographer who shot Kodachrome and I knew a lot of photographers right across the spectrum in the 70's, 80's and 90's, but he used it in London and had the advantage of Kodak's fast processing service,

One of my friends a top Advertising/Commercial photographer set up his own E6 and C41 lines because that way his clients had the finished work, prints or slides at bthe ensd of the day,

What people over look is it wasn't that Kodachrome was inferior, far from it, it was it wasn't commercially viable.

There were other issues Kodachrome couldn't be push processed, I was regularly push processing E6 and C41 (XP1/2) films because In worked for arecord company shooting their bands live.

There's a danger of over hyping the pros of Kodachrome films and forgetting the cons, used well Kodachrone was amazing, but withn the wrong lih=ght it was useless.

Ian
 

accozzaglia

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Your grand narrative doesn't address the basic facts.

A) it's not a grand narrative. B) a "basic fact" follows… now:

I could probably distil it all to this one point: Kodak, up top, behaved with a kludgy slowness and an arrogance brought on by a belief of untouchability which befall smaller companies far quicker and far more mercilessly.

The fact is now borne by continuing historical review — corporately, culturally, organizationally — on how a giant with a near-unassailable monopoly, with customers as large as the U.S. government to as small as your grandmum, could be pronounced dead by a Chapter 11 reorganization in 2012 and by having thing broken up.

The fact was it engaged in bad business practice.

The fact was a reluctance to "think smaller, respond quicker".

The fact was a refusal to explore the utility of scalability in its manufacturing, granular marketing, and merchandising.

The fact was a refusal to adopt all imaging possibilities as viable business paths (something which Fujifilm had the foresight to do differently, and lo, they're still chugging). Kodak had well more than enough film families to work with to do the latter two — adaptive marketing and merchandising — adeptly. The first — scalability — was achievable only had a strategic commitment from up top been present, along with its ability (and a humility) to have been able to admit (gosh, admissions by a bunch of bros are hard to do in a corporate context!) that the way it long did business when it was nearly the only game out there (and with an incredible might to vertically control everything from R&D to consumer post-production) was a relic they wished to move beyond in order to not only survive, but also to be a solid presence for the future.

The fact is Kodak, up top, didn't do that. Nearly everything they made well or invented outright suffered because of that. The imaging industry remains impoverished because of that.

The fact is it's a crying shame.
 
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accozzaglia

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After walking through there on the final three days of Kodachrome, I was relieved as an urbanist to learn how the site would be remediated and repurposed for use for the public's benefit (and hopefully as a stimulator for a healthier, more diversified economy for the Weston-Eg area).

So to exercise some irony, I used Kodachrome to document Kodak Canada's charred remains on December 27th, 2010:

 

accozzaglia

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Complex chemistry and it does not scan all that well with D ICE. But I have to admit that I love the look of Kodachrome!

Yes. It had a complex chemistry which could be largely automated and scaled down for neighbourhood lab use. That was what K-Lab was — a brilliant move, but a brilliant move too little and a brilliant move too late.

Also, I've never been a fan of D ICE. Yes, I'm quite happy with manually cleaning up dust and specks on my own scans.
 
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MattKing

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It isn't likely that the slide was projected a lot. And the slides themselves, which are amongst a few thousand others, were never stored in any particular way, although the boxes would have kept them dark.

The actual slide is way more faded to the eye than what you see here - I did my best to restore this for my mom's memorial, because it is possibly the earliest shot we had.
 

MattKing

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National Geographic magazine had its own, in-house Kodachrome lab in Washington, DC. It was frequently the highest volume lab in the world (respecting still film).
 

Photo Engineer

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Amen!
 

Photo Engineer

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National Geographic magazine had its own, in-house Kodachrome lab in Washington, DC. It was frequently the highest volume lab in the world (respecting still film).

Professionals from all over the world wanted Kodachrome. That is why Fuji and Konica as well as Dynochrome developed their own "kodachrome" film family. But, when the new process came out they did not follow and dropped their Kodachrome compatible materials in favor of their own reversal products. Agfa never joined the "kodachrome" club.

Also, price is something to consider. Genuine Kodak Kodachrome was up to 10x more expensive than the similar product from Fuji.

PE
 

skorpiius

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Just a comment on floppy drives and the risk of losing the ability to read various formats.

I just found an article from 2003 saying Dell was no longer including floppy drives in their PCs by default.
But to this day you can still buy 3 1/2 usb floppy drives. Therefore there is so far a 12 year warning about that format. If one has 15-20 years warning to transfer to a new format and doesn't, that really isn't anything on the reliability of digital. As was mentioned, one of the advantages of 'the cloud' is the cloud providers take care of the technology migration for you, you just have to worry about file formats, and I expect you'll have far greater warning with something like JPG, one measured in decades.
 

Ian Grant

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National Geographic magazine had its own, in-house Kodachrome lab in Washington, DC. It was frequently the highest volume lab in the world (respecting still film).

There was never any doubt that Kodachrome films were exceptionally good. In the UK though we only had Kodak's very slow processing, even though a company did begin to to offer a 3rd party Kodachrome processing service, it never really took off though. It was far too late.

You aloso have to remember that National Geographic began accepting work shot on Fujichrome 50D, that was the end of Kodachrome.

Ian
 

Roger Cole

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There were other issues Kodachrome couldn't be push processed, I was regularly push processing E6 and C41 (XP1/2) films because In worked for arecord company shooting their bands live.

Ian

Could it not be pushed? The 2009 data sheet that someone posted mentioned asking the lab to push Kodachrome 200. I never asked for it. It did say it was not recommended (but not impossible, and Kodak's "not recommended" in lots of things was perfectly adequate for many people) for 25 and 64.

It did suffer speed wise though. 64 is just darned slow for a modern film, 25 more so, and the 200 just wasn't that good, or at least the few rolls I got in 2010 and shot in my final year of Kodachrome weren't. Color was mostly ok but grain was far inferior to, say, Provia 400X which was also a stop faster.

I understand a K400 emulsion had been in the works, though.

Ultimately the increasing quality of E6 films and the complexity of processing is really what killed it. Sure the change to digital is choking off even E6 but E6 has continued well past the demise of Kodachrome. When you get right down to it, most of the other stuff - processing delays mainly - stem from the complexity.
 

MattKing

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I have no experience with the "minilab" versions of the Kodachrome processing machines.

The earlier machines were roller processors, that were designed to produce motion picture film. All the customers' films were spliced together into one large roll, which in addition to the processed film also had long leaders and trailers on it (each of which were on the order of 1 mile in length). Then the whole roll was run through the machine.

So in order to "push" the film, you would need to match it up with a very large number of other rolls that required similar treatment.
 

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Kodachrome could be pushed just like E6. Also, there was a t-grain version with 400 speed, but no one was interested.

PE
 

accozzaglia

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For a fee, Dwayne's offered push/pull processing, but it was limited to no more than, as memory serves, 1.5 stops push and (maybe up to) 1 stop pull. Oddly, I still have their transfer and movie processing order forms but lack their still film processing form. I did have some older PKL200 — 18 years expired — pulled slightly to counteract ageing.


Grain, like colour, is an aesthetic feature. I ended up being partial to Kodachrome's grain patterns, different as they were between 25, 64, and 200. I've always wanted to see just one test slide of the never-released K400 that was tested by Kodak staff in Rochester, ca. 1988. I do like Provia 400X, but I find it to be temperamental under certain conditions in ways I couldn't anticipate. Also, I find the palette to be lacking. RXP's indirect predecessor, however, RMS Multispeed 100/1000, was one of my favourite stocks when it was still available.

Also, as slow emulsions go, that there is still a demand for ISO 25 b/w pan and ortho films (and a supply from at least one, or maybe two companies) renders the speed argument kind of moot. If there's a demand for its imaging properties, then there's a purpose for making it available to photographers. As to whether the vendor can scale up or down its manufacturing components, however, is another matter.

I didn't mind using KR64, KM25, or KL200 over one another, quite frankly. I had an idea in mind the latitude of what I could do with each of the three film product speeds I could locate (KPA40 excepted), and I used them each accordingly. My limitation was usually confined to what emulsion stock was available. Consequently, I shot most stuff in KR64, followed by KL200 and, lastly, KM25.

KM25


KR64


KL200



I understand a K400 emulsion had been in the works, though.

Yeah. They had a chance to get that to market, if only they'd been more nimble. Arguably, were they more nimble, development on a K400 might have begun even earlier. To what degree the advances in grain size reduction/sensitivity (like "two-electron" grain) being tried in their consumer films (like the Disc camera and 110) were technically transferable to the development of upgraded K-14 emulsions is something someone like PE or his peers would know best.

Ultimately the increasing quality of E6 films and the complexity of processing is really what killed it.

In addition to Kodak being Kodak (per what was discussed earlier today).
 
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Walking Stick Heads
Puyallup, 2010
Kodachrome 64
 
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