why cross process slide films for night scenes?

[Erik Petersson]

Friends,

I am spending a week in Moscow and the colors at night are just marvelous. Street lamps are green, orange and red, the sky is blue or black and there are interesting views everywhere. I want to photograph this.

When I browse APUG I find that some of you choose to cross process slide film for such pictures (JD Callow for example, with his marvelous photos). As far as I know cross processing intensifies colours and increases contrast. I don't understand. Wouldn't the high contrast ruin things?

I already have some Provia 400X but am willing to try other. Provia 100? Velvia? Tungsten film? C-41? (I use a Nikon F3 this week.)

thanks for any advice
Erik

 

[2F/2F]

Nothing can be called right or wrong unless judged against the criteria established by intent/desire. Cross processing would ruin photos if your intent was to capture a wide tonal range and have close-to-accurate colors. It would be right if your intent was to have high contrast and inaccurate colors.

You do not just take photos without thinking about what you want the print to look like, do you? You have many choices to make from the point of having the subject in front of you to the point of displaying the finished work. You have to make choices, which requires having an opinion – an idea of what you want in the end, at the most basic level. Two of the choices that can highly influence what you get in the end are film choice and processing choice. Cross processing transparency film in negative chemistry is just one of the many film/processing choices you can make.

 

[Erik Petersson]

Well, I guess that I am just asking for tips and info for colourful night photography using cross processed slide film. Let me refine the question. Can I lower contrast by pulling at development? And: Are there any films you would recommend for experimentation in this field?

Earlier this year I tried to underexpose Provia 400X and push process it two steps for similar scenes, but this time I would like finer grain. Example: http://pics.livejournal.com/erikpetersson/pic/00045bx8/

 

[2F/2F]

If you want to lower contrast and get wonky color, I might try cross processing the other way; shoot a C-41 film and put it through E-6 chemistry. Emulsions intended for E-6 are inherently high in contrast compared to films intended for C-41, regardless of development. If you start with a lower-contrast emulsion (any C-41 film) and cross process in E-6, you might get closer to what you are looking for.

Based on a little test of Astia and EPP that I did for my own curiosity, overexposing lowers the contrast when cross processing. A two stop overexposure of EPP yielded about one grade more tonal differentiation on a grey scale than did the normal exposure. Of course, you get thick negatives, which may be unsuitable for scanning; optical printing can be done, however.

You might want to try both of these techniques to see what you get. I am sure there are some chemical techniques that you can use as well, but I do not know them.

 

[hrst]

Doing a "wrong" process, or cross-processing, does not mean wonky colors by definition. Cross-processing E6 film in C-41 indeed results in higher contrast and strange hues, but the high saturation is mostly thanks to high contrast. C-41 film in E6 might be more likely subdued.

But there's also possibility to shoot color neg with long exposures to give enough exposure to shadows and enjoy the very long latitude. Ektar 100 offers remarkable saturation without high contrast, but does not hold up very well for over 1 minute exposures.

These are quite different looks and both are nice and interesting, but in a different way. If I was you, I would try both!

And finally, using slide films such as Velvias as they are intended will also look very good..... If you want fine grain, go with Velvia. Velvia 50 is best IMO for an medium-contrast high-saturation film, but reciprocity failure does not allow exposures much beyond 20 seconds. Velvia 100 and 100F, OTOH, are very good even for long night exposures, but they are higher in contrast.

 

[Erik Petersson]

If you want to lower contrast and get wonky color, I might try cross processing the other way; shoot a C-41 film and put it through E-6 chemistry. Emulsions intended for E-6 are inherently high in contrast compared to films intended for C-41, regardless of development. If you start with a lower-contrast emulsion (any C-41 film) and cross process in E-6, you might get closer to what you are looking for.

Based on a little test of Astia and EPP that I did for my own curiosity, overexposing lowers the contrast when cross processing. A two stop overexposure of EPP yielded about one grade more tonal differentiation on a grey scale than did the normal exposure. Of course, you get thick negatives, which may be unsuitable for scanning; optical printing can be done, however.

You might want to try both of these techniques to see what you get. I am sure there are some chemical techniques that you can use as well, but I do not know them.

I am afraid that both Astia and EPP are discontinued. Kodak recommends E100G as replacement for EPP. Thanks for sharing your experience, though!

I am not sure if my lab would accept to cross process c-41 in e-6, but I should of course ask.

 

[Erik Petersson]

Doing a "wrong" process, or cross-processing, does not mean wonky colors by definition. Cross-processing E6 film in C-41 indeed results in higher contrast and strange hues, but the high saturation is mostly thanks to high contrast. C-41 film in E6 might be more likely subdued.

But there's also possibility to shoot color neg with long exposures to give enough exposure to shadows and enjoy the very long latitude. Ektar 100 offers remarkable saturation without high contrast, but does not hold up very well for over 1 minute exposures.

These are quite different looks and both are nice and interesting, but in a different way. If I was you, I would try both!

And finally, using slide films such as Velvias as they are intended will also look very good..... If you want fine grain, go with Velvia. Velvia 50 is best IMO for an medium-contrast high-saturation film, but reciprocity failure does not allow exposures much beyond 20 seconds. Velvia 100 and 100F, OTOH, are very good even for long night exposures, but they are higher in contrast.

Thanks for your recommendations. My experience with really low light is that slide film gives nicer and cleaner blacks than negative films, but maybe that can be fixed in printing...

I will need a film that can handle long exposures and is not too contrasty. The search continues!

 

[2F/2F]

"Wonky" simply means "off," not "exaggerated." Going either way will produce wonky colors. Putting a neg. film through E-6 does subdue colors, but the results are still wonky.

Astia and EPP are discontinued, as you say. I was not suggesting that you use them. I was just sharing the results of my test, which was conducted on them. I would think that the same results would be achieved with some other, if not all other, transparency films when they are cross processed.

 

[hrst]

The key to get "clean" blacks on negative film is to expose enough (expose for shadows). If you try to include toe in print, it will look muddy and grainy. You have to expose enough so you can "cut" the toe off in printing.

Pulling E6 will reduce contrast, and can also improve Dmax a bit (not sure how much, though) which is good for projection. I have yet to test Velvia 100 or 100F @ 50 and pulled one stop, but at least Velvia 50 shot at 20-25 and pulled one stop did show increased detail both in shadows and highlights and overall reduced but still punchy enough contrast.