Why Black & White

bowzart said:

A lot of people took up photography because their first grade teachers told them that "That doesn't look like a horsey!"

I draw, sometimes, too, and in fact, went to art school because I wanted the whole thing, not just the photo part.

It's good for a photographer to draw. There is a tradition going back thousands of years - of monochromatic drawing. On walls, on rocks. On anything.

I agree with you entirely, and I can say that the difference is far less significant than the similarity.

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BTW: I can draw cartoons but not fine art. I could do it if it was "life or death" but it would come out looking like an eighth grade class project. I think it's because of a mental block. Cartoons don't have to be "perfect" but an artistic sketch does. I never drew anything more than cartoons so I never developed the skills beyond that.

Besides, I like photography better. It engages my A.D.D. mind better.

Worker 11811 said:

BTW: I can draw cartoons but not fine art. I could do it if it was "life or death" but it would come out looking like an eighth grade class project. I think it's because of a mental block. Cartoons don't have to be "perfect" but an artistic sketch does. I never drew anything more than cartoons so I never developed the skills beyond that.

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There seems to be a cultural war on drawing. Just about everyone thinks that he/she can't draw. That attitude is, I believe, a result of training. There is this mythology about "talent" which is supposed to be a gift of your fairy godmother. Do you have a fairy godmother? I don't. If you can write your name, you can (and do) draw. And there is no difference between "cartooning" and "fine art". Drawing is drawing. Making marks.

In my history, I was energized as an aspiring artist as a freshman in college by a very charismatic but controversial professor. A calligrapher, he taught an art history class, in which he managed to slant just about any topic toward Zen Buddhism (he was also the mentor of the poets Gary Snyder and Phillip Whalen). He stimulated an amazing amount of enthusiasm in his students, and I was no exception.

In studying ancient Chinese paintings, I became captivated by the capacity of those works to bring form out of the void, where the raw silk with no paint at all contained what seemed to me, to be incredible power.

I spoke with him about what I felt was my need to practice art, and my frustration with my conviction that "I can't draw". He advised that I could practice art, but due to the fact that I would be in competition with others who had been practicing since infancy, while I had not, it might not be really wise to set my sights on making my living doing it. He suggested art history as a profession.

Incidentally, his observation was right on. My daughter, whose parents were both artists and who was herself a practicing artist from the moment she could hold anything in her hand and move it consciously, showed her portfolio to the recruiter for Cooper Union. They were very aggressive in convincing her to go there. It is a very hard school to get into for most people. Free art school in New York City?

Then, discovering photography, I recognized that maybe I could achieve my goals after all, and I learned with a camera, film, and darkroom provided by my stepfather. However, still feeling the need to overcome my "inability" to draw, etc., I went to art school, also.

My involvement with color began when I got a job as a color printer. I got to like color on my own, but it still has a taste of servility for me. I was chained to hot Chromegas for a long time, and it left its mark on me. But, with Black/white, I still am pursuing that same compelling vision that drew me so powerfully back in 1964. I have never felt the same about color; for me, it lacks the potential for realizing that vision, which really does seem to be in the province of black and white, whether it is pigment or silver. Whether it is hand produced or resultant of optics seems not to matter much.

ADD: I'm supposed to be extremely ADD myself, and I know a lot of artists - photographers and others, too - who are. It's one of those fields where in some ways, it may actually help! However, it sure doesn't help pay the rent. Anyone who can make a living as an artist does so by sustaining focus and directing a lot of attention to the business of selling, which is not a forte of the ADD person. I'm no good at it. I seem to repel money.

simple.... because I like it !!

I can draw fairly well but not well enough to satisfy myself. I occasionally have flashes of brilliance and I can draw something I think is really nice but these events are few and far between. If I really worked at it, I am sure that I could develop the ability to recall those flashes on demand. I think I get more reward from photography than from drawing because I can produce more things that satisfy my vision using a camera than I can with a pencil.

One thing that peeves me off is when people think that ADD is a disability or a "learning difference," as the politically correct like to put it.
The truth is that ADD is simply a different way of seeing things. A person with ADD has the ability to pay attention to multiple stimuli at the same time where others may not. That's it. Instead of medicating kids with ADD, we should teach them to harness their powers to their advantage. That's neither here nor there. What's important for me is that I find photography more in-line with my ability to attend to a given stimulus and produce artwork according to what I see. Drawing doesn't satisfy me the same way.

I like having total control of making a print. From choosing the EI to shoot at, the developer and time to use, to making and toning the print. That way I can really say this print is mine. I really don’t feel anything that passes through my computer is mine any more. Too much hands off mystery about what goes on in the box before the printer kicks the print out.

I would like to argue B&W from a completely different angle. Coming from exclusively color shooting (C41 first, E6 now and just recently started some B&W), I'm used to picking the film which has the best matching color representation for expressing some emotion. Velvia/E100VS/Ektar are highly saturated, Portra 160NC and Astia much less so. B&W film is the natural extension if the emotion you'd like to convey requires fully desaturated colors.

Personally I think, see and feel very much in color, whereas lines and patterns rarely touch me emotionally. I am no fan of flower/sunset/baby pics in B&W, but love certain types of landscape and especially moody night shots in B&W. One also shouldn't forget the superior archival qualities of B&W ...

bowzart said:

There seems to be a cultural war on drawing. Just about everyone thinks that he/she can't draw. That attitude is, I believe, a result of training.

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That statement is spot on. My wife, who is a superb artist, gets her dander up when people say they can't even draw a straight line. Have they ever practiced drawing a straight line? (It does take practice to do well) Or when kindergarten or early primary grade teachers ask their little students to draw a self portrait. WHAT??? Why not ask them to write a novel when they finish the portrait.

Drawing and painting are not "gifts"...they're skills. It takes the same kind of tenacity, training, and time that it takes to play a musical instrument well. (Who ever expects to just sit down at a keyboard and play one day?). Of course, there are folks who catch on faster than others, and/or have more imagination to bring to bear on their work, but to be good at it is, at bottom, to master a discipline, and a craft. With enough effort perhaps it can ultimately become an art with a capital A.

For one thing, there are very few straight lines in most artistic drawings. It is a fallacy to think that one needs to draw a straight line or a perfect circle to be able to draw.
Neither does a drawing have to be an exact representation of something real. It doesn't need to represent anything.

One thing I like to do is teach kids to draw cartoons. In about 10 minutes you can take a kid from thinking they can't draw to being an artist.
First draw two circles for the eyes. They draw the nose and mouth. Round off the face. Does your "guy" need to have a beard, a mustache or glasses? Draw them in! Put a hat on him. Bingo! You drew a cartoon!

Kids are literally amazed when they discover they have talent. It's all a matter of casting off preconceived notions.

But, for me, it is hard to produce a drawing that represents what I see in my head. A lot of my vision does represent an object in reality. When my hand can not produce what I see in my mind's eye, I get frustrated. It's frustrating enough when I can't produce a photo that matches my vision. Drawing can be even more frustrating.

I do like color photos. I often take color photos with my digicam and process them on my computer. I could use color film but I wouldn't be able to produce color prints at home with the equipment I have now. It will take time, money and practice to do, in color, what I can do in black and white. The only thing I can do is take color slides/transparencies and scan them on my computer.

Shooting black and white also sharpens my eye when I do use color. After using black and white for a long time, finally producing a good color image is even more satisfying.

I have only been back into shooting film for a few months, now. I'm getting back up to the place where I was before but I feel like I've still got a way to go before I can start producing REALLY GOOD images. When I get to that point, I'll give serious thought to producing some color images on film but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

There is something satisfying about shooting, processing and printing my own photos. It gives a sense of ownership. It's like working on your own car.
Sure, I could take it to "Quickie Lube" to get my oil changed but the satisfaction and sense of ownership you get from working on your own car is worth the time I would save in taking it to the garage.

Even so, I just LIKE shooting in black and white.

jovo said:

... Of course, there are folks who catch on faster than others, and/or have more imagination to bring to bear on their work, but to be good at it is, at bottom, to master a discipline, and a craft....

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I might add to this, John, that just because it is easier for one person than it is for another, that is a very poor predictor of which will eventually be the better. Often, when it comes too easy, a person will look for something more challenging.

When I was in Jr High School (the term itself dates me) I played french horn, and I was quite good. The band teacher, himself a horn player, had great hopes for me. The fellow who sat in second chair had to struggle a lot, where it seemed to come easy for me. Guess which one of us ended up in the Seattle Symphony. I don't know where he is now, but you have to be pretty good to even have a chance to sit in one of those chairs.

Worker 11811 said:

...
Even so, I just LIKE shooting in black and white.

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And that's certainly enough.

About cartooning: My son in law, a Cooper Union art graduate, is a cartoonist. Of course he has to do design and illustration to pay the rent, but cartooning can be a very fine art form in skilled and imaginative hands. I used to work on a magazine called Pacific Search in Seattle. One of my colleagues was Gary Larson. I often have the thought that I should write and tell him just how much cheer he's brought into my life over so many years.

To me b & w is the "skeleton" of photography. I want people to see what I am taking a picture of , not because it is colourful.

bowzart said:

And that's certainly enough.

About cartooning: My son in law, a Cooper Union art graduate, is a cartoonist. Of course he has to do design and illustration to pay the rent, but cartooning can be a very fine art form in skilled and imaginative hands. I used to work on a magazine called Pacific Search in Seattle. One of my colleagues was Gary Larson. I often have the thought that I should write and tell him just how much cheer he's brought into my life over so many years.

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If it wasn't for Gary Larson, I might not be alive today.

I don't want to go into the gory details but, suffice it to say, I went through some hard times on the personal and emotional fronts for a few years when I was in college. It was cartoonists like Larson and Bill Waterson who gave me that extra little bit of sunshine (Read: wonderfully warped sense of humor) that helped me make it through another day.

As much as I understand the difficulties in being a daily or weekly cartoonist in today's commercial markets that make people like them want to retire, I really wish they would keep drawing cartoons, even if only occasionally.

I don't want to wallow in my own sorrows but I really want Larson and Waterson know that they have probably saved a quite a few lives through their work.

TEX said:

I wonder when photography was discovered and its prints were in colour, would we even know about B&W?

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Yes, I believe so.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is gray and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion

Strange coincidence...
The Moody Blues was playing on the radio as I was driving to work this morning.

Worker 11811 said:

Strange coincidence...
The Moody Blues was playing on the radio as I was driving to work this morning.

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You think it mere coincidence?

Coincidence? Or was it synchronicity?

Worker 11811 said:

Coincidence? Or was it synchronicity?

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That's why I asked.

I don't know about your experiences, but I certainly had few cosmic revelations while listening to the Moody Blues. At least they seemed cosmic at the time.

Cosmic revelations, both chemically induced and without.

ralnphot said:

I would like to remind people that there are youngsters that view this site, and ask that you all refrain from vulgarities. Its quite alright to disagree with one another, but please tone down and not use the offensive language. My 12 year old daughter reads some of these posts, and I'm sure there are more kids than any of us realize. A mother posted on here yesterday that she has a young teenage daughter that has a developing passion for photography, and it would be terrible if we put them off because of the liberal use of vulgar language. I'm sure everyone here has enough of an education to find a better choice of words.

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Thanks for the advice, but there wasnt one bit of vulgarity in my post.

If you're worried about something so benign and trivial as being vulgar and bad for someone who is 12 to read, I really think you're sheltered about what kid's are exposed to, and expose each other to these days

There is no such thing as coincidence, there's just a lot of things happening at the same time...

ralnphot said:

I would like to remind people that there are youngsters that view this site, and ask that you all refrain from vulgarities. Its quite alright to disagree with one another, but please tone down and not use the offensive language. My 12 year old daughter reads some of these posts, and I'm sure there are more kids than any of us realize. A mother posted on here yesterday that she has a young teenage daughter that has a developing passion for photography, and it would be terrible if we put them off because of the liberal use of vulgar language. I'm sure everyone here has enough of an education to find a better choice of words.

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Athril`s post was tame. If that was vulgar to you, I`ll keep in mind not to swear here for fear of giving some old folks a heart attack.

Also, I find it hilarious how many people find it necessary to attack color photography in order to make a case for B&W. That says a lot...

ralnphot said:

I would like to remind people that there are youngsters that view this site, and ask that you all refrain from vulgarities. Its quite alright to disagree with one another, but please tone down and not use the offensive language. My 12 year old daughter reads some of these posts, and I'm sure there are more kids than any of us realize. A mother posted on here yesterday that she has a young teenage daughter that has a developing passion for photography, and it would be terrible if we put them off because of the liberal use of vulgar language. I'm sure everyone here has enough of an education to find a better choice of words.

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As the mother of a 15-, 14-, and 10-year-old, I'd like to point out that they hear much worse language at school, in movies, on TV, and in general daily life. I don't think the occasional mild expletive is out of line on a site full of thousands of adults, particularly since it's an international one with a wide variety of standards regarding what is and isn't appropriate language.

- CJ

apconan said:

Also, I find it hilarious how many people find it necessary to attack color photography in order to make a case for B&W. That says a lot...

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Touche.

Personally, I just refrain from using the "Carlin Words." (AKA: The seven "Filthy Words" you can never say on television.)

Even then, it's not simply a black and white issue anymore. Standards have changed since the time Carlin did that bit.

It is true that Athiril's post contained no vulgarity, and it is also true, as several have mentioned, that worse language is regularly used in the schoolyard and just about every other place that children go. I had to wonder "worse than what?" because there was nothing in the LANGUAGE that was offensive. If the post was offensive, it was due to its USE of language, which was confrontational and had the effect of questioning the intelligence of other users. It did offend me, too, but that's ok. I don't expect other people to make me comfortable. I've looked at A's other posts and have gone to his blog, and it is clear to me that he has valuable insights, which are entirely appropriate, and I hope will be welcome in this context.

I might wish that we could be kind to one another even if we disagree; especially if we disagree, but often we're not. I'M not always very nice at all.

I think that we must realize that in a forum such as this, all levels of knowledge and a vast array of social behaviors find their way into print, simply because there are minimal consequences for lack of clear thinking, lack of knowledge, or lack of grace. My hope is that we can be tolerant and that we take some care in keeping our criticism constructive and congenial, but NEVER to be satisfied with ourselves failing to say what we feel needs saying.