Why are my pushing results garbage?

[mathjeff0]

I've recently attempted to push some color film (Fuji Superia 200 to 800) and when I go off to develop it, I get some very dark pictures with oddly saturated colors. I followed the procedure on the unicolor c-41 manual and got these results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong and or any possible solutions? Maybe a few tricks? I have had these chemicals for a month but have gotten decent results when I processed non pushed film. Thanks!

 

[Cholentpot]

I've recently attempted to push some color film (Fuji Superia 200 to 800) and when I go off to develop it, I get some very dark pictures with oddly saturated colors. I followed the procedure on the unicolor c-41 manual and got these results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong and or any possible solutions? Maybe a few tricks? I have had these chemicals for a month but have gotten decent results when I processed non pushed film. Thanks!

You're going to find people here telling you that there is no such thing as a push and etc...

For all practical reasons lets just stick with a push as us idiots think of it.

I don't generally push color film, I find it not to look very good and I always get weird shifts and terrible grain. At least in 135. 120 is a different story. Now, if I do push C-41 I would start with 400 speed or higher. 100 and 200 just don't push so well in my experience. Even with B&W films.

If you are looking for a film that pushing well try some Portra 400 or some of that Cinestill stuff.

Good luck.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I've recently attempted to push some color film (Fuji Superia 200 to 800) and when I go off to develop it, I get some very dark pictures with oddly saturated colors. I followed the procedure on the unicolor c-41 manual and got these results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong and or any possible solutions? Maybe a few tricks? I have had these chemicals for a month but have gotten decent results when I processed non pushed film. Thanks!

I can't remember how many gazillion times this has been said but color film is not designed for pushing. Unlike B&W color must be developed within certain strict parameters. If you alter such things as temperature, the developer time, developer composition, etc you will experience color shifts and cross over.

 

[removedacct1]

Because push processing color films produces garbage.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The question that must be asked before pushing color film is will you be satisfied with the color shift. If not then don't push.

 

[MattKing]

All a "push" process really does is increase the contrast. That can help under-exposed near shadows and mid-tones look somewhat more pleasing, but the shadows themselves will still be dark, you will have more problems with how the over-developed highlights tend to blow out, and with colour film you will also have problems with colour shifts.
I'm guessing that what you are showing us is semi-automated scans. When you scan over-developed colour film, the scanning software tries to rescue the results. Thus the unnatural increase in saturation. If you dial down the contrast and saturation, the results would instead most probably look grainy and somewhat washed out.
For certain subjects and certain lighting conditions (even, low contrast lighting), under-exposure and an increase in development can be effective. I actually like the effect on the second shot inside the movie theatre. I can understand though why it might not be what you are looking for.

 

[btaylor]

All the advice concerning the poor results of pushing color negs above makes sense. If you must push, there was a trick from back in the days when motion picture film topped out at ASA 100: flashing. The film is slightly exposed to light either before or after the primary exposure and it raises the bottom of the shadows and the midtones. Then push process if needed. Not pretty, but it works. But by far the best thing to do would be to start with a much faster film.

 

[WilmarcoImaging]

Agree with all of the above. Additionally, the subject on the left has high contrast lighting. This adds to (worsens or improves depending on your creative goals) the effects of color shift and lack of shadow definition noted above. Pushing color film with a low contrast subject may produce results that, depending on your creative goals, appear less as garbage. Give it a try.

For a d******l comparison with a high contrast subject, set the ISO to 200 and use manual control of shutter speed and aperture to arrive at a 2 stop underexposure. If the results are not garbage to you, the solution has been found.

 

[pentaxuser]

Stating the obvious but both pics seem to have a strong red/magenta cast in the positive so I am assuming that this is reflected in the cast in the negs. Given the magnitude of the cast I'd be surprised if normal RA4 processing under an enlarger can correct this. It may be correctable or at least improved with the kind of scanning a mini--lab can do before printing but I know nothing of these matters

From what I have seen and as at least one other has said, starting with a 400 film and attempting a one stop push may fare better. Alternatively consider getting some 800 colour neg

pentaxuser

 

[bernard_L]

The two images are... interesting. Maybe you should consider using that process to create a moody (dreamy?) series?
Now, if you just want the extra speed and want to minimize distortions, you might consider:
- shooting a gray card; same film, same lighting; and use that to reset the neutral point
- shooting a color target (e.g; Wolf Faust, or other) and profile your process film+dev+s*n*g

 

[Craig75]

Nice effect. As bernard says you can do something there and use the colour shifts to create a vibe

 

[removed account4]

hey mathjeff0

do a test ... a variety of different lighted subjects and bracket your exposures and push process your film
and do the same test and over / under developer in your drum by 30% or whatever the manual suggests for color film / effstop
its like finding your iso sweet spot ... but with less light

i don't really shoot much color but when i did, and i needed extra stops, i just used a higher iso film since i wasn't processing it myself
so i sent it to the lab and got expected results ...

its too bad jd callow isn't here, he is a wizard when it comes to color film .. pushing and cross processing
his words are still here on photrio, you might do a search for all the posts he made about the subject
https://www.photrio.com/forum/search/12318901/
maybe his radar will go off and he'll see this thread and offer some expert advice too ...

good luck weeding through all the "can't do that's "

john

ps. i love the contrast + saturation you posted ..

 

[saman13]

I’ve had better luck pushing slide than negative. My local lab tech gave me a whole lecture one time on why that is, something about how slide processing is closer to b&w processing and you don’t have to adjust each individual color so you don’t get color shifts.

But, I also like the movie theater shot. Looks like you could’ve been on the set of The Shining.

 

[trendland]

Well friends I see this a little different.
In general : pushing color, bw, E6 is an absolute normal procedure with all films
with respectable results just from my point of view.

With bw you often have it the most easiest way in comparison.

With E6 it is more complicated.

In the middle is c41 because you have the possibility to correct some parametern a little.

But - that may be issue here - what have
one normaly to expect ?

A more speed with fine results ?

Indeed Kodak Portra 400, maybe also
Portra 800 have a quality reserve to
Push1 (1 stop) the most I know stated
Kodak Vision3 (in Ecn2) are absolute grandious up to Push2 (2 stops).

All the time in the past press photographers loved Ilford Hp5 with
2 stops, 3 stops pushing some stated :
" 4 stops in pushing Hp5 is also possible with aceptable results "

So what - where is the problem?

THE PROBLEM IS A VERY RELATIVE LOST
OF EMOLSIONS PARAMETERS IN REGARD
OF SOME CHARACTERISTICS (GRAIN,COLOR CORRECTNESS, TONAL RANGE [CONTRAST],RESOLUTION.)

My advice to the OP : Try it again please.
Obviously you films are underdeveloped.
So you have to add a more of developing
time.
Results should be less dark.
Perhaps you mixed time table of your instruction in REGARD OF PUSH STEPS.
ISO 200 to ISO 400 is PUSH 1
you mentioned ISO 200 to ISO 800 but
this is PUSH 2 (two stops).
At least : Superior 200 is a fine and VERY cheap film to me. It is a high resolution
emulsion comparible with other modern types (Portra, Ektra).
But Superior is just its name. ....
(Kodak films I mentioned are real superior in comparison......)
But you have to pay much more for them.

Notice Superior 200 makes no sence to
push it to ISO 800. Also ISO 400 isn't the best choice [take an other film with box speed ISO 400].

Some try Superior 100 AND pull this film
(ISO 100).

But if you are an absolute fan OF a PUSH
Process with your unicolor developer try
real high speed films.
ISO 800 - ISO 1600 AND PUSH THEM UP
(Max. 1 Stop)
Because from my point of view avaible light with color film ISO 3200 is possible
today.
And I personaly own some shots in streetlight at night in Paris without tripot
(not allowed AND not possible) wich I don't want to miss.
Grainy characteristic and color shifts I don't carte on such motives.

with regards

 

[trendland]

I’ve had better luck pushing slide than negative. My local lab tech gave me a whole lecture one time on why that is, something about how slide processing is closer to b&w processing and you don’t have to adjust each individual color so you don’t get color shifts.

But, I also like the movie theater shot. Looks like you could’ve been on the set of The Shining.

Notice saman13 :

The "lift scene" in Kubrics Shining at the "Overlook Hotel" setting - if you mean this in comparison with OPs Theater shot - has a VERY strong symetry. So as all establishing shots at the beginning in "Overlook". Remember the obsessive symetry from Jack Nicolsons job interview :

(first shot out of axial symetry)

....... so "a very little more" than to push a film is to do to come just in the near of
"shining".
But you are right : Nice pictures from
the OP from a special view...

with regards

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Stating the obvious but both pics seem to have a strong red/magenta cast in the positive so I am assuming that this is reflected in the cast in the negs. Given the magnitude of the cast I'd be surprised if normal RA4 processing under an enlarger can correct this. It may be correctable or at least improved with the kind of scanning a mini--lab can do before printing but I know nothing of these matters

From what I have seen and as at least one other has said, starting with a 400 film and attempting a one stop push may fare better. Alternatively consider getting some 800 colour neg

pentaxuser

If the color cast is due to crossover then no amount of filtration will correct the problem. When you increase development it is the top layer that receives the additional development. If you try to correct the cast from the top layer then the other two are also affected.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Pushing black & white film is not really pushing the film, just changing the contrast. Pushing color film will result in garbage, do not bother doing it.

 

[trendland]

If the color cast is due to crossover then no amount of filtration will correct the problem. When you increase development it is the top layer that receives the additional development. If you try to correct the cast from the top layer then the other two are also affected.

Sure you are right (I also expect some protest) but in some cases you can correct colors with c41 films while printing.
E6 slides are ALLWAYS not correctable.
So if the color layers together react due to push process with a tendency of a color cast.
May be I mistake but not every "wrong color" problem is caused from color shifts of ONE layer of the emulsion?

with regards

 

[trendland]

Ahh I read it again "cross over" yes you mentioned it right.
That is the correct term (I allways have to translate some issues first )
Yes so let me say : In cases of No crossing over little corrections are possible while
printing.
The issue I just wanted to cover out is the difference from pushing E6 in comparison to c41.
(I would never push E6/I would never use high speed E6 - but sometimes I tolerate pushing c41)

with regards

 

[Sirius Glass]

Crossover is one of the problems with pushing color that makes color correction hard.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

[QUOTE="trendland, post: 2002771, member: 56548
May be I mistake but not every "wrong color" problem is caused from color shifts of ONE layer of the emulsion?

with regards[/QUOTE]

That is true. If you use a color developer where the color developing agent is not the intended one then all the colors will suffer a shit. This what happens with cross processing.

 

[Minoltafan2904]

You CAN push colour film without getting bad results.
Portra 400/800 pushes to 1600 fine.
Ektar 100 can be pushed to 400 with ok results.
And let's not forget E-6P films:
Ektachrome 800/1600 was a version of Ektachrome 400 that pushed very well to 800 or 1600.
Fujichrome Provia 1600 ( version of Provia 400 that was meant to be pushed to 1600 )
Kodachrome 200 , it was the only Kodachrome film suitable for pushing ( according to Kodak it could be pushed to 500 / 800 ISO )

 

[Sirius Glass]

You CAN push colour film without getting bad results.
Portra 400/800 pushes to 1600 fine.
Ektar 100 can be pushed to 400 with ok results.
And let's not forget E-6P films:
Ektachrome 800/1600 was a version of Ektachrome 400 that pushed very well to 800 or 1600.
Fujichrome Provia 1600 ( version of Provia 400 that was meant to be pushed to 1600 )
Kodachrome 200 , it was the only Kodachrome film suitable for pushing ( according to Kodak it could be pushed to 500 / 800 ISO )

That is NOT PUSHING, it is using the latitude range of the film.