Why alternative processes?

Mainecoonmaniac · Jun 11, 2018

Why is there a need to cook in an age of microwave meals? I like alt processes because it's hands-on and slow. I also embrace the frustrations along with the beauty of alt processes.

Bob Carnie · Jun 11, 2018

Not sure what you mean by my Sales Pitch there jtk but for me its no pitch but a way of life, and income for my family, I have been around long enough to listen and understand bullshit when I hear it. Kodak , Fuji, Ilford and Agfa spread enough of it these last 60 years.

I am beginning to think epson and canon are spreading their own paticular brand.

jtk · Jun 11, 2018

Many of the "alternative process" works that I've seen have been very appealing.

For example, Warhol's work with photosilkscreen and xerox...
https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...gallery.com/userfiles/89211g.jpg&action=click

Or...https://www.metrotransit.org/central-station-public-art

Or https://www.gallery.ca/collection/artwork/only-poetry-remains

NedL · Jun 11, 2018

When I was a senior in college, almost every evening I used to sit on the cliffs overlooking the ocean and fish. Many times I caught my dinner. Once there was a huge run of mackerel. You could tie six shiny hooks onto the leader, no bait, cast it out, and before it sank there were six fish on the line. It was no fun at all, just a lot of hard work hauling in the fish.

At my job, I work on difficult and complicated and challenging problems to get to an answer and a final report. If I could get to the answer just by pressing a button, I'd look for a different job. All the satisfaction is in the work and very little is in getting the result.

I grow my garden because I love watching the seeds sprout and taking care of the plants and watching them grow. Sure a homegrown tomato tastes better than a store-bought one, but that's beside the point. I could go to a farmers' market and get someone else's homegrown tomatoes if that's all that mattered. Walking in a garden you planted and cared for yourself has its own satisfaction. Not everything is about the final result.

faberryman · Jun 11, 2018

NedL said:
When I was a senior in college, almost every evening I used to sit on the cliffs overlooking the ocean and fish. Many times I caught my dinner. Once there was a huge run of mackerel. You could tie six shiny hooks onto the leader, no bait, cast it out, and before it sank there were six fish on the line. It was no fun at all, just a lot of hard work hauling in the fish.

At my job, I work on difficult and complicated and challenging problems to get to an answer and a final report. If I could get to the answer just by pressing a button, I'd look for a different job. All the satisfaction is in the work and very little is in getting the result.

I grow my garden because I love watching the seeds sprout and taking care of the plants and watching them grow. Sure a homegrown tomato tastes better than a store-bought one, but that's beside the point. I could go to a farmers' market and get someone else's homegrown tomatoes if that's all that mattered. Walking in a garden you planted and cared for yourself has its own satisfaction. Not everything is about the final result.

I primarily print platinum/palladium. While I enjoy the process, it is with an aim toward the result. I would not do it for the process alone. I do not photograph for the act of photographing.

NedL · Jun 11, 2018

I hear you. I wouldn't fish if I never caught one, or garden if my tomatoes always died, and I wouldn't have a job if I never got results. And I wouldn't make salt prints if I didn't love the way they look. I don't think I'd enjoy making them as much if they came out of a printer. But I agree it's not just process or just the results. It's both.

Arthurwg · Jun 11, 2018

jtk, when you say "files" are you talking digital files or negatives? If digital, do you expect those files to be useful in 100 years?

jtk · Jun 12, 2018

Arthurwg said:
jtk, when you say "files" are you talking digital files or negatives? If digital, do you expect those files to be useful in 100 years?

Arthur, when I say "files" that's what I mean. I've scanned most of the 35mm and MF negs I care about as well as the hundreds of historic and family photos (print and neg) from late 19th century. Those files are all backed up on external Hard Drives as well (recently) on "thumb drives." The only known problem with thumb drives is that they're easily misplaced.

Yes, those digital files are sure to be around in future centuries, to the extent that anybody cares and assuming that I don't destroy them. As soon as I've settled on a "cloud" system all of that material will be available there as well. Easy to do, takes zero time.

My 35mm scans are all grain-sharp thanks to Nikon, better than printing optically. My medium format scans are as good up to 16X20 as the film itself, but unlike 35mm, not beyond (vintage Epson scanner).

I should mention that I also enjoy shooting/processing/scanning 35mm B&W and would shoot 35mm chromes if a convenient and reliable lab was still available. Naturally, I scan all of those that I care about. I don't shoot C41 because it's so transient.

faberryman · Jun 12, 2018

jtk said:
I don't shoot C41 because it's so transient.

What does this mean?

LifeOnFilm · Jun 12, 2018

Most things that we have or do aren't necessary, from good food to nice clothing to taking photos to begin with, they're justified by the fact that they bring us happiness. That's enough.

removed account4 · Jun 13, 2018

OP

what is it exactly that you refer to as "alternative processes" ?
seems these days anything can be considered "alternative"
i can see how silver printing might be considered alternative process
but ink /pigment prints ?
maybe if they are made by the starn twins and the photographer
does encaustic painting on them because there is some
sort of human intervention ,, but i don't think ink/pigment prints
is an alternative

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
Arthur, when I say "files" that's what I mean. I've scanned most of the 35mm and MF negs I care about as well as the hundreds of historic and family photos (print and neg) from late 19th century. Those files are all backed up on external Hard Drives as well (recently) on "thumb drives." The only known problem with thumb drives is that they're easily misplaced.

Yes, those digital files are sure to be around in future centuries, to the extent that anybody cares and assuming that I don't destroy them. As soon as I've settled on a "cloud" system all of that material will be available there as well. Easy to do, takes zero time.

My 35mm scans are all grain-sharp thanks to Nikon, better than printing optically. My medium format scans are as good up to 16X20 as the film itself, but unlike 35mm, not beyond (vintage Epson scanner).

I should mention that I also enjoy shooting/processing/scanning 35mm B&W and would shoot 35mm chromes if a convenient and reliable lab was still available. Naturally, I scan all of those that I care about. I don't shoot C41 because it's so transient.

Get them on Cloud, portable drives are notoriously bad for long term storage..

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
Get them on Cloud, portable drives are notoriously bad for long term storage..

External drives have been as reliable as internal drives for a long time...more reliable when you consider the problems Mac users have periodically experienced. There's a reason businesses rely nearly exclusively on PC (but that's another debate). Until recently I double-backed up on externals but have recently redone that second backup on thumb drives, which are faster and far cheaper. And yes, a cloud method will soon be automatic for me...for that second backup.

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

I have my work backed up on Drobo, and internal drives and in some cases portable.... I probably will go to the Cloud when I have all my files finished to print, this will still take me a couple of years. Thank goodness that in my case
I am scanning 100% film either black and white or colour negative and I do have this film in safe storage for now... My friends who are now using the 100mb Phase Cameras have a complete storage system to put in place and I do think they are using Cloud for critical work.

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

jnanian said:
OP

what is it exactly that you refer to as "alternative processes" ?
seems these days anything can be considered "alternative"
i can see how silver printing might be considered alternative process
but ink /pigment prints ?
maybe if they are made by the starn twins and the photographer
does encaustic painting on them because there is some
sort of human intervention ,, but i don't think ink/pigment prints
is an alternative

My impression (fwiw) is very few silver printers put as much hands-on work into their enlargements as I did when I was printing optically. Today, nobody who has failed to produce good inkjet enlargements understands the amount of "human intervention" that's involved...They fail to understand "The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance." - Ansel Adams

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
My impression (fwiw) is very few silver printers put as much hands-on work into their enlargements as I did when I was printing optically. Today, nobody who has failed to produce good inkjet enlargements understands the amount of "human intervention" that's involved...They fail to understand "The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance." - Ansel Adams

I still print optically and I can without a doubt say that I put as much or probably more than you ever did into optical prints... Most great digital printers have come from optical...

faberryman · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
My impression (fwiw) is very few silver printers put as much hands-on work into their enlargements as I did when I was printing optically.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
My impression (fwiw) is very few silver printers put as much hands-on work into their enlargements as I did when I was printing optically. Today, nobody who has failed to produce good inkjet enlargements understands the amount of "human intervention" that's involved...They fail to understand "The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance." - Ansel Adams

I see you are from Albuquerque - how would you rate your printing skills with Kirk Gittings, I have seen his work many times so you can back up your claims.

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

Bob, Kirk Gittings is among the finest B&W printers I know of. More importantly, he's an exceptional photographer.

I've never "claimed" much about my printing craft, though it's better than I'd expect from typical labs..I'd call my inkjet printing "very good."

I don't know anything Gittings' current inkjet work, but one of his most amazing photos was shot with a Canon 5D and printed as a mural here in Albuquerque by http://carrimage.net/ ... I do know that he's done his own exquisite B&W scans, therefore presumably has printed from them. Unfortunately, little of his work has been published with anything like respect. My favorite Gittings prints are permanently displayed at Albuquerque Nature Center...a suite of images celebrating preservation efforts for the Rio Grande River...they're photojournalistic, perhaps shot 6X9.

jtk · Jun 13, 2018

http://carrimage.net/patrick-carr-fine-artist/ Background on a very fine Albuquerque inkjet printer and graphic artist.

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

Kirk and I are friends and if you wish ask him what kind of printer I am, he has seen my work. I believe he still works with film now and then and does still practice optical printing when the mood sways him.
PS is just an adaptation of darkroom dynamics, I have yet to see anything in PS that cannot be duplicated (with a lot of pain) in the darkroom. For those of us who have darkroom experience and are willing to embrace digital PS with open eyes and arms , the transition is smooth... basically its just learning where everything is placed in the PS platform.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 13, 2018

PS and digital negatives have been a God send as far as I'm concerned... Many doors and possibilities have been opened.

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

Yes I agree, it has made my creative approach more open with all types of possibilities... To repeat everything has been done before and very well, but these new tools are essential for my practice.

Bob Carnie · Jun 13, 2018

Interesting Article just sent my way ...
Ghosts in the machine: Retro photography is in voguehttps://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/06/02/retro-photography-is-in-vogue via @TheEconomist

removed account4 · Jun 13, 2018

jtk said:
My impression (fwiw) is very few silver printers put as much hands-on work into their enlargements as I did when I was printing optically. Today, nobody who has failed to produce good inkjet enlargements understands the amount of "human intervention" that's involved...They fail to understand "The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance." - Ansel Adams

i am sure your ps and ink work is very nice and takes effort
but i don't think effort is what the OP was referring to when
he said "alternative process" in the opening statement of this thread ( maybe i am wrong? ).
maybe to some people silver printing and exposing film is an alternative process
seeing it is anything but mainstream,
other types of UV and hands on photograph making like gum overs, PT PD
cyanotypes, carbon, kaliotypes, albumen, hand painted silver, orotypes, tin/alumin/ambrotypes
hand made silver emulsion &c too
not saying your ink and photoshop work isn't hands on .. but still it would be nice
for the OP to clarify what he means by alternative process... because it might means
something different to everyone who has posted their words in this thread.

Why alternative processes?

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