Who to believe, re: FB paper rinse times

[srs5694]

I've been using RC paper since starting to do my own B&W enlargements a few months ago, but today I received my first batch of FB paper (Oriental VC-FB II). I've noticed a rather huge difference in advice regarding washing this paper, though. The paper's own instructions say to wash for 90 minutes, or for half that when using a hypo clearing agent. My bottle of Zonal Pro washing agent, though, says to do a 5-minute wash followed by a 10-minute soak in the washing agent followed by a second 5-minute wash. So basically, which procedure should I follow (or should I do something else entirely)? The Zonal Pro seems to have an unusual composition; according to the label, it's got ammonium bisulfite and sodium hydroxide. Ordinarily I'd follow the paper manufacturer's recommendation, but that composition might well be relevant. Thanks for any advice.

 

[david b]

I use a hypo clearing bath and then a 30 minute wash. Never had a problem.

 

[voceumana]

Wash time depends upon the fixer you use.

If you use an acid hardening fixer, the general recommendation used to be to wash for 1 hour without hypo clearing; with hypo clearing I think they said 20 minutes, but I'd do 30.

If you use a non-hardening fixer, then the wash time can be shorter.If you use an alkaline fixer, the wash can be shorter. Neither requires hypo clearing.

Read the recommendation on the fixer package for wash times.

 

[dancqu]

The paper's own instructions say to wash for 90 minutes,
or for half that when using a hypo clearing agent. My bottle
of Zonal Pro washing agent, though, says to do a 5-minute
wash followed by a 10-minute soak in the washing agent
followed by a second 5-minute wash.

Zonal Pro ... it's got ammonium bisulfite and sodium hydroxide

Nine out of ten will tell you I do it this way or that way.
I doubt that there be a single solitary sole who sticks to the
instructions, letter for letter. And just how far would they take
anybody? The instructions are not detailed enough so that the
amount of minutia involved be included. One might even
wonder where are the instructions?

The old five-ten-five Ilford routine with their film strength
fix and brand of HCA. Hover if you must but I try to keep my
hovering-over-the-tray time short. There is usually plenty
of minutia waiting to be done. One may return to agitate
a tray, wash a bottle, pull a print, etc. Dan

 

[gbroadbridge]

Best bet is to test for residual fixer and keep testing until the test comes back clear. That will give you a baseline wash time for your process method.

Your method is the bit that counts, someone who fixes for one minute (hypam) will need much less wash time than someone who fixes for 2.

Graham.

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=gbroadbridge]
"Best bet is to test for residual fixer and keep testing
until the test comes back clear. That will give you a
baseline wash time for your process method."

I've read somewhere that the HT-2 test has a two month
life span. The test is made up of silver nitrate and acetic
acid. According to one source the acid decomposes the
thiosulfate releasing sulfur. I'd think the nitrate would
then oxidize the free sulfur. Not so says the source.
Silver sulfide then forms producing the stain. Any
explanation and why the HT-2's short life span?
That I've not been able to figure.

"Your method is the bit that counts, someone who
fixes for one minute (hypam) will need much less
wash time than someone who fixes for 2."

And less water. At least that was Ilford's pitch up
until recently. Now they do not distinguish twixt a
one or two minute fix, film or paper strength, when
they suggest their 5-10-5 minute paper
wash routine. Dan

 

[removed account4]

i use 2:8 sprint speed fixer (no hardener!) and perma wash.
i wash, fix-remove and wash again and i never wash as little as the perma wash folks suggest, although i know people who have without any problems. i usually wash at least 20mins with a long soak and 20-30 water exchanges. i sometimes run a blank piece of paper or test print through the chemistry which is washed exactly the same + at the same time as everything else as a "control" and test it for residual chemicals ...

you might want to do a few tests as was suggested to see what your methodology yields ...

good luck!
john

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I've been using RC paper since starting to do my own B&W enlargements a few months ago, but today I received my first batch of FB paper (Oriental VC-FB II). I've noticed a rather huge difference in advice regarding washing this paper, though. The paper's own instructions say to wash for 90 minutes, or for half that when using a hypo clearing agent. My bottle of Zonal Pro washing agent, though, says to do a 5-minute wash followed by a 10-minute soak in the washing agent followed by a second 5-minute wash. So basically, which procedure should I follow (or should I do something else entirely)? The Zonal Pro seems to have an unusual composition; according to the label, it's got ammonium bisulfite and sodium hydroxide. Ordinarily I'd follow the paper manufacturer's recommendation, but that composition might well be relevant. Thanks for any advice.

I agree with voceumana that "Wash time depends upon the fixer you use." It also depends on whether you use a single fixing bath or two baths (my preference,BTW). If you are using a bath (or baths) of fresh Ammonium Thiosulfate based Rapid Fixer, the amount of relatively insoluble silver compounds formed during the fixing process will be smaller and consequently, the amount of washing required will be less. You do not say which fixer you are using. If it is Zonal Pro EC Non-Hardening Rapid Fixer, it is most probably Ammonium Thiosulfate based (from the descriptionand directions for use given on the Alta website: http//ww.altaphotographic.com/zonal.html.

The zonal Pro wash aid appears to be a fairly standard buffered Sodium Sulfite based mix with a chelating agent added ( and possibly some detergent and/or surfactant as well, a la Reichner.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Washing anymore than ten minutes is a waste of time for either RC or Fiber papers. Acid or alkaline fixers, make no difference to wash time. Clean water and aggitation is the key.

I would like to see test data that supports the claims (Clean water and aggitation (sic) ) you made

 

[lee]

I would like to see test data that supports the claims (Clean water and aggitation (sic) ) you made

so would I.

lee\c

 

[John McCallum]

... and I.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have run extensive fix and wash time comparisons with various fixes from pH 4.5 up to 9. I find both the fix time and the wash time vary as described in Anchell and Troop and of course in Haist, the source of information on alkaline fixes and the effect of pH on fix rate and wash rate.

I have used in my tests, both FB and RC (Ilford and EK products as well as other less well known brands). My tests included fix times of 15", 30", 1', 2', 4, and 8' and similar wash times out to 20 mins.

My data do not agree with the statement made by Lowell Huff.

However, you can wash any kind of paper too thoroughly and actually worsen print stability as described in the excellent article on this subject by Ctein. Overwashing removes the extra protection supplied by the small residual amount of sulfur compounds which protect the silver image by reacting with it to form a protective sulfide coat. This is akin to toning. It is also similar to the effect afforded by using something like Sistan in your process.

PE

 

[lee]

Lowell Huff according to Google is the national sales manager for Clayton Chemicals. Maybe he's getting ready to tell us about his chemicals.

lee\c

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I have run extensive fix and wash time comparisons with various fixes from pH 4.5 up to 9. I find both the fix time and the wash time vary as described in Anchell and Troop and of course in Haist, the source of information on alkaline fixes and the effect of pH on fix rate and wash rate.

I have used in my tests, both FB and RC (Ilford and EK products as well as other less well known brands). My tests included fix times of 15", 30", 1', 2', 4, and 8' and similar wash times out to 20 mins.

My data do not agree with the statement made by Lowell Huff.

However, you can wash any kind of paper too thoroughly and actually worsen print stability as described in the excellent article on this subject by Ctein. Overwashing removes the extra protection supplied by the small residual amount of sulfur compounds which protect the silver image by reacting with it to form a protective sulfide coat. This is akin to toning. It is also similar to the effect afforded by using something like Sistan in your process.

PE

From my own experience and testing, I agree, PE! and I also recommend Grant Haist (Modern Photographic Processing) as a very valuable information source on the subject of photographic fixing and washing.

 

[hortense]

Alkaline Fixer

Wash time depends upon the fixer you use.

I use an alkaline fixer an not Hypo Clear washing for 30-minutes. The paper tested ok.

 

[pentaxuser]

Not since APUG barred a certain interloper recently have I seen another member hold such unequivocal views which seems to be completely opposite the accepted wisdom as espoused by all the other members and what I understand the accepted photographic wisdom as epoused in books, etc.

If he is right about the washing time required, it clearly has great advantages in terms of time and water and print throughput. I have never used FB as it always seemed to me that the effort involved outweighed the benefits, although I accept that FB users almost to a person consider it well worthwhile.

If 10 mins max washing time can be substantiated by evidence then I for one might reconsider FB. If the member has connections to a chemical company then I am surprised that that company is not shouting its findings from the rooftop as it seems to have discovered a breakthrough which would boost FB use and save us all money and time.

Can 10 mins be achieved only with Clayton Chemicals or is it independent of this? Even if it is independent then if I were part of Clayton I'd still want my company's name to be associated with making printing life easier as it may persuade people to use my company's products and there's nothing wrong with getting people to make the connection between a good, helpful company and good products.

So is there anyway the subscriber can help us by providing evidence that 10 mins max works?

I have seen enough instances in many fields of conventional wisdom being proved wrong to want to remain open-minded

Pentaxuser

 

[JHannon]

However, you can wash any kind of paper too thoroughly and actually worsen print stability as described in the excellent article on this subject by Ctein. Overwashing removes the extra protection supplied by the small residual amount of sulfur compounds which protect the silver image by reacting with it to form a protective sulfide coat. This is akin to toning. It is also similar to the effect afforded by using something like Sistan in your process.

PE

This is a good point PE, I have read that prolonged washing of RC papers can cause edge seperation but did not realize this could happen too. Any links to this article? I Would be interested in reading it.

Someone already mentioned this, but..

Ilford's procedure called "Optimum Processing Sequence" calls for a shorter wash time to achieve "optimum permanence" and save water. Shorter time in the fixer (rapid, 60 sec). First running water wash of 5 mins, 10 mins in wash aid followed by another 5 min running water wash.

Any tests done on this?

Thanks,
John

 

[reggie]

I have found that standing water and a 24-hour soak time will effectively remove the emulsion from the paper - it stays in the water as you lift out the paper. This usually is the result of late-nite printing sessions and maybe some wine while waiting for the prints to wash.

I assume that is one form of archivalness?

-R

 

[srs5694]

So what rapid (~60-second paper wash time) fixers do people recommend? I've tried TF-3, but the ammonia odor is overpowering. I can tolerate it, but I'd rather not. (TF-3 is fine for film, though; it's just the open trays of it that make the ammonia odor permeate the darkroom.)

 

[fhovie]

gee - I just did one of thoses late nighters - and then had to go places - my FB and RC prints were in the wash for at least 12 hours. The RC prints are not flat now - no separation and the FB prints are fine. I hope they are washed enough ... he he

I use TF3 - Ammonium Thiosulphate fixer with a pH of 8. If it won't clear film in 60 seconds, I chuck it. (for both paper and film)