White skin bias in old stock film

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chriscrawfordphoto

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There's no bias in film, no matter how much the race-baiting media wants to make you think there is/was. I worked for years in a photo lab and could get beautiful skin tones from photos of any race of people. Black people often looked terrible in prints from photo labs, but it wasn't the film that caused so many photos of blacks to be too red and often too dark. It was the auto-color correction of the lab machines that did that. When I printed manually, which I always did for my black customers, their skin tones looked great.
 

pdeeh

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this one has been beaten to death a few times on APUG
 

Jerevan

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It's a long chain of stuff (light, exposure, development and printing) and rather obviously, there are a bunch of things that can go wrong along the way.

Even white people ("caucasian") skin can look pretty different from person to person. And with a half-assed photographer and in bad light, it can be tough times for anybody. :D
 

Hatchetman

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This has been discussed here and seemingly debunked by people that actually made the film.
 

Sirius Glass

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This has been trashed several times on APUG and there is no verified information on this subject. This is a thread to ignore. Please verify threads rather than posting trash and spam.

Posts like these make me put the OP on the ignore list.
 
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gr82bart

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Truzi

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Yes, this subject has been brutally debated before on this site. I don't know that the debate itself is bad, but the direction it turned certainly was; it brought out a lot of bad things and animosity from some people. One example was the condemnation of entire groups simply because some people disagreed, and many people exhibited the very things they accused others of.

If we go down this path again, it would be a good idea to stick to the subject without judging others' opinions based on what group they may (or may not) belong to.
 
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gr82bart

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David A. Goldfarb

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Previous thread was soapboxed and even then it was closed. Here it is, if you're curious--

https://www.photrio.com/forum/index.php?threads/film-is-racist.113680/page-7#post-1502839

It's unfortunate that what could be a productive discussion was shut down due to a lack of civility. Maybe we can try to keep this one civilized.

It would be unsurprising to me that in a country where racial bias was prevalent, to learn that racial bias made its way into the photographic industry. Maybe the film was racially neutral, but automated photofinishing was biased at a certain point. It's a valid question.
 

pentaxuser

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The key question has to be: If film is designed to replicate the full range of colours in scenes which makes sense either in B&W or colour as not all dark colours are skin related then why deliberately bias a film towards white skin, even assuming this is possible, at the risk of poorer darker colours. The whole premise seems to be that you can improve "white skin" at the expense of "dark skin" but still maintain authentic colours where "skin" isn't involved. This would seem to be difficult or perhaps impossible to me.

Did the film makers decide that in Europe, for instance, they would ignore correct representation of say Europeans south of a certain line of latitude and in the U.S. cater for the lighter range of African- Americans only, who may be no darker than tanned non African- Americans?

Did colour or B&W film capture Jake Lamotta better than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ingemar Johannson better than Floyd Paterson? The more you pose these questions, the more incredulous becomes the answer of Yes

Well it does to me

None of the above observations has any bearing on the clear bias against "non-whites that we know existed and may still exist.

pentaxuser
 

mshchem

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I don't know. All the Playboy centerfolds I ever saw all looked great to me. Regardless of race, creed or color. Must of been special film. :smile:
 

Eagle Blue

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Here's the deal. I came on here today because I wanted to ask a question about the original single coated 50/1.4 lens that came with my new Nikon F that I think I'm going to have a photographic affair with. That was what was on my mind. Now I'm annoyed. I can get this activist crapola everywhere. Woe is the white man, responsible for all the sins of the world crap.
I come here as sanctuary in my hobby. I can get that hogwash ANYWHERE in the media, and more than a belly full each time. Absurd on the face of it. It's miracle enough that chemists in a lab can have come up with formulas to get a plain color wheel alone to reproduce with reasonable accuracy on a piece of film. Bringing historical pretended offenses of the dead into it is ludicrous. The thread should be shut down before somebody else just as annoyed with activist absurdity comes on here and has to endure having it splattered in their face. It's not as if this site is bound to gather an expanding readership as time goes on. And junk like this doesn't help the cause of longevity for this site.
 

Vaughn

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It is simple enough to ignore posts containing concepts that upset you or disturb your point of view. I suggest you do so.
 

MattKing

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I worked as a colour printer in the 1970s, doing most of my work for wedding and portrait photographers.
There was all sorts of cultural influence on how my customers - the photographers - preferred to have prints of their customers - the end clients - appear.
It was not unusual to have customers of Chinese heritage prefer a print that made them appear more as a rosy cheeked Caucasian from northern European stock. That didn't happen because those customers couldn't see the differences, but rather because of expectations that may have been out of date and, frankly, unfortunate.
In those cases, I would have preferred to make what I would have considered to be more accurate prints.
At the time, there were very few black people in our community, but there was a strong contingent of people of Chinese heritage, and some of them were descendants of people who had come to the Pacific Northwest several generations previously.
Many of those early arrivals had endured tremendous racial discrimination. In the 1970s there was a strange mix of residual discrimination and burgeoning multi-ethnic acceptance.
I say all this, because many of the articles that I have seen on this subject seem to me to get it backwards. The standards - like the "Shirley" standards - were reactive in nature. People developed those standards to reflect the work that was before them. When photofinishing was the purview of the big, centralized labs, many of the people in those labs or involved in designing things for those labs didn't have many people of colour in their lives.
In some cases, those standards may have served to perpetuate some problems, but generally (and sometimes slowly) they evolved as the market evolved.
People often decry the effect that the "one hour photo" lab had on quality. In one really important way, it caused a great improvement of quality.
In one hour photo labs, the people doing the printing were members of the community that there customers shared with them. And multi-ethnic communities quickly developed colour printing people who had a good eye for multi-ethnic skin tones.
I've known people in the photographic industry - including the photo-finishing industry - for around 5 decades.
In all that time, I can't think of a single person who didn't want to serve and sell to people of all ethnic heritage. I've known a few people who would make bright green prints of you, if they could sell them.
 

Eagle Blue

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It is simple enough to ignore posts containing concepts that upset you or disturb your point of view. I suggest you do so.
Thanks. I'm not challenged by any new concepts with this sort of thing. I'm simply bored with veiled agenda. My foot is well and I've got a couple nice new Nikon toys. It's very easy to close the lid of this laptop and give it back to my friend, and let these activist types talk to each other, without my having to suffer the absurdity. They're not going to let any of us escape hearing the drill. Post away. I'll even stipulate. I'm a white man and am responsible for all the wrongs of history. CYA
 

MattKing

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Thanks. I'm not challenged by any new concepts with this sort of thing. I'm simply bored with veiled agenda. My foot is well and I've got a couple nice new Nikon toys. It's very easy to close the lid of this laptop and give it back to my friend, and let these activist types talk to each other, without my having to suffer the absurdity. They're not going to let any of us escape hearing the drill. Post away. I'll even stipulate. I'm a white man and am responsible for all the wrongs of history. CYA
As I posted above, I think that many of the analyses of this issue have cause and effect backwards.
It is true though that there have been distinct styles of "portrait" printing evident and those styles have changed along with a lot of things in the photographic world.
Even if the explanation arrived at is flawed, it is fascinating to see the evolution of the perception.
I've no doubt that if I was working as a colour printer now, I would be printing various skin tones differently than when I was in my 20s. And much of that change is due to societal changes in the perception of "unusual" vs. "usual".
If you are using photography to communicate about people, it really helps to understand what your current unspoken assumptions about people are.
 

pdeeh

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Oh and sorry I have a life that prevented me from realizing this was posted before. I will endeavor to know every topic ever previously posted before. Sheesh.
well, you know it's an open thread, and it's not unmannerly to note something has been discussed and debated before, and it's not a personal attack on an OP to note that either; nor does it suggest that the current discussion is superfluous, or shouldn't be taking place at all.
 

chriscrawfordphoto

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LOL As if being ignored by old white men is going to disturb me. Over what? Perceived offense to their fragile and eroding privilege in one post out of thousands? SMH Anyway.....

Found this....
http://www.cjc-online.ca/index.php/journal/article/view/2196/3069

Regards, Art

What an ignorant, racist post. There are a lot of whites with no 'privilege' in the country you chose to move to. Millions of American whites live in poverty; they have no political power, no money, and are looked down on for their lower-class origin.

I know from experience. My grandfather had an 8th grade education. My father was the second person in our family's history to graduate from high school. I was the 6th. Rich white people are certainly privileged, as rich people everywhere are, no matter their race. Most white Americans are not wealthy.
 
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