White boarder negatives, what gives?

trudee · Oct 16, 2014

finished developing negatives using my jobo, opened the tank and the negatives had an image but the back was whitish. the boarders were white, not the clear/black negative. instead of using stop bath I tried, 1:3 white vinegar for 1 minute. HELP, can I still print from these negatives? what happened? won't substitute white vinegar for stop bath again.

MattKing · Oct 16, 2014

The negatives aren't properly fixed.

Refix them.

Be sure to check that your fixer isn't exhausted.

trudee · Oct 16, 2014

thank you, and thank goodness. refix tomorrow.

paul_c5x4 · Oct 16, 2014

Refix as soon as possible. Don't wait until tomorrow.

A rule of thumb for fixing: Double the time it takes for the film to clear. i.e. If it takes two minutes for the milkyness to disappear, the total time in the fixer bath should be four minutes.

As for stop - A teaspoon of citric acid powder in a litre of water works just as well.

pentaxuser · Oct 16, 2014

It is unlikely to be the problem here but proper stop bath is cheap. The highly concentrated Kodak one makes gallons of the stuff. I'd be wary about using white vinegar which might contain other ingredients. Great for flavouring fish and chips but not really meant for photographic purposes

pentaxuser

bdial · Oct 16, 2014

Bulk white vinegar is acetic acid and water, the label should indicate the ingredients. (at list this is true for the stuff sold on this side of the pond).
Nothing wrong with using it in stop bath, except that you don't get the indicator that tells you it's spent.

But, as stated earlier, the problem in this case is not the stop, but spent fixer or inadequate fixing time.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 16, 2014

bdial said:
Bulk white vinegar is acetic acid and water, the label should indicate the ingredients. (at list this is true for the stuff sold on this side of the pond).
Nothing wrong with using it in stop bath, except that you don't get the indicator that tells you it's spent.

But, as stated earlier, the problem in this case is not the stop, but spent fixer or inadequate fixing time.

I am not a great fan of reusing stop baths.

White vinegar is either 4 or 5% acetic acid so check the label to determine the correct dilution. Remember to use whute vinegar and not ordinary cider vinegar.

An acetic acid stop bath has an indicator which is built in and that is its smell. If you choose to reuse such a stop bath just check its smell. A faint smell indicates that it is exhausted.

pentaxuser · Oct 16, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
An acetic acid stop bath has an indicator which is built in and that is its smell. If you choose to reuse such a stop bath just check its smell. A faint smell indicates that it is exhausted.

I take it that this is a different faint smell from its normal vinegar smell which is quite strong. Even in a Nova slot my darkroom smells quite strongly of the kind of good old fish and chip shop seen in L.S. Lowry paintings

How does its smell change? Is there any danger that by the time its vinegar smell has been sufficiently exhausted to allow you to smell its new faint smell then the stop bath has been already over-used?

Thanks

pentaxuser

GRHazelton · Oct 16, 2014

I've never used stop bath with film, just a thorough rinse in plain water at about the developer temperature. But if I had to use a really short developer time I'd use stop bath, since with water there is probably a little developing going on for a short time before thorough dilution. Since vinegar or commercial stop is cheap, why reuse? That's okay for paper, where you can reprint, but film? I think not.

cliveh · Oct 16, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
An acetic acid stop bath has an indicator which is built in and that is its smell. If you choose to reuse such a stop bath just check its smell. A faint smell indicates that it is exhausted.

No, it is the colour, yellow when fresh and purple when exhausted.

Sirius Glass · Oct 16, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
I am not a great fan of reusing stop baths.

Stop bath is reusable until it starts to turn purple.

MattKing · Oct 16, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Stop bath is reusable until it starts to turn purple.

Actually ....

There are non-indicator stop baths - the "Eco-Pro" stop comes to mind.

And the indicator in Kodak's Indicator Stop bath isn't as "conservative" as Gerald's smell test - it really doesn't turn colour until the stop is well and truly exhausted. That is quite a bit after diluted acetic acid loses its smell.

I still recommend Indicator Stop bath though, because it is excellent at warning you when you have screwed up and underestimated how much you have used it.

I use it for film, and discard it after each day of use, but unless I am developing a lot of film I use it at half strength.

Photo Engineer · Oct 16, 2014

cliveh said:
No, it is the colour, yellow when fresh and purple when exhausted.

This only refers to indicator stop baths. The odor test applies to all other acetic acid stop baths. There is no smell with citric acid baths so an indicator should be used.

Remember that indicator and smell tests are not exact and therefore you have to be careful with exhaustion when using an acid stop. I do not use my stop single use, but I sure do throw it out often to insure good stopping action.

PE

pentaxuser · Oct 16, 2014

Gerald hasn't replied but from what I have seen in the latest posts it would appear that the key test to exhausted stop bath is in fact "lack of vinegar smell" so when you enter your darkroom which has a stop bath slot in a Nova or you pour your used stop bath back into a tray the key is that the vinegar smell is faint rather than strong. Once it loses its pungent and distinctive vinegar smell then dump it.

Makes sense

pentaxuser

wildbill · Oct 16, 2014

I don't use stop bath for film either. Never had a print complain.

Xmas · Oct 17, 2014

wildbill said:
I don't use stop bath for film either. Never had a print complain.

It was (maybe still is) necessary if you are using a developer that could stain in hypo.

Otherwise it merely swells the emulsion more than tap water, which even @ one shot is cheap even in Calf or UK.

But all this talk of vinegar means Im having fish and chips for lunch today with lashings of vinegar.

Photo Engineer · Oct 17, 2014

A stop bath decreases swell. The Isoelectric point of bone (ossein) gelatin is pH 4.5 which is the point of MINIMUM swell. If you use an acid hardening fix or a near neutral fix, you get quite a good firm gelatin matrix.

PE

White boarder negatives, what gives?

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