Which tele, Summicron, Elmarit or Sonnar?

pepo007 · Jun 30, 2009

Hi,
I have Zeiss Ikon and trying to found out, which tele lens will be the best options for me. As I must point out, I'm not looking for portrait lens (I have 6x6 camera for that), but lens for details on concert, theater and other shows. You can say lens for PJ style. I'm thinking about Elmarit 90 2.8 (last version), Summicron 90 2.0 APO asph. or Sonnar 85 2.0 ZM. Elmarit look as good size, but compare to other two, I'm afraid if quality picture will be satisfactory for my shooting style. Of course also price is in game, Elmarit for 1000, Summicron 1800 (used) and Sonar 2800. Which one will you choose and why? Do you other option there? So far I have 35 2.0 Zm Biogon and I don't want have more than two lenses. I will appreciate your input on it. Thanks in advance. Pepo

Rol_Lei Nut · Jun 30, 2009

The Elmarit would be my clear choice, unless you *really* need the extra stop of the Summicron or Sonnar.

You definitely will NOT be disappointed by the Elmarit's image quality!!!

All three lenses are excellent, albeit with different signatures. The Elmarit is tendentially "hard and biting", which might suit your purposes very well.

luvcameras · Jun 30, 2009

Here's a Leica Lens price guide to help wit your decision Dead Link Removed

I prefer the 90 Summicron type 2.

Dan

John Koehrer · Jun 30, 2009

You didn't mention the Summicron non-aspheric which might approach your budget. Unless you're buying new.

pepo007 · Jun 30, 2009

John Koehrer said:
You didn't mention the Summicron non-aspheric which might approach your budget. Unless you're buying new.

Hi John, yes I will consider also non-asph. design, I will like opt for use lenses. But I don't have much infor of pre-asph. summicron.. All insides will appreciate.
Pepo

Rol_Lei Nut · Jun 30, 2009

pepo007 said:
But I don't have much infor of pre-asph. summicron.. All insides will appreciate.
Pepo

The Last pre-Asph Summicron is slightly soft at full aperture, but has better bokeh and is more "pictorial" than the Elmarit (which is more "analytical"). A great lens for portraits.

The Elmarit is a bit harsh and has worse bokeh as far as portraits are concerned, but has a higher contrast and (IMHO) is better suited for landscapes, architecture and so on..

Having both and not taking many portraits recently, I almost exclusively use the Elmarit. It is also smaller and lighter.

pepo007 · Jul 1, 2009

Rol_Lei Nut said:
The Last pre-Asph Summicron is slightly soft at full aperture, but has better bokeh and is more "pictorial" than the Elmarit (which is more "analytical"). A great lens for portraits.

The Elmarit is a bit harsh and has worse bokeh as far as portraits are concerned, but has a higher contrast and (IMHO) is better suited for landscapes, architecture and so on..

Having both and not taking many portraits recently, I almost exclusively use the Elmarit. It is also smaller and lighter.

Hi I heard stuff, like sometimes lenses (or rangefinders) must be calibrated? Since these lenses are Leicas and I have Zeiss camera, do I need to calibrated them is some way?

Rol_Lei Nut · Jul 1, 2009

pepo007 said:
Hi I heard stuff, like sometimes lenses (or rangefinders) must be calibrated? Since these lenses are Leicas and I have Zeiss camera, do I need to calibrated them is some way?

Not if they're working properly....

Though it is always a good idea to check the calibration, especially with teles.
Once you have a lens, mount it on a tripod and focus on something exactly 1 metre away (measured from the film plane). Also shoot some frames at full aperture, slightly readjusting the focus to a touch below and above 1 metre (take notes!).
That should give you an idea of how accurate your focus is.

Lee L · Jul 1, 2009

You can also use a test target for checking calibration, especially at the critical closer distances. Here's one that works well. http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/focus-chart
Be sure to read instructions. It says it's an autofocus test chart, but it actually works with manual lenses as well. (Some people are just locked into one way of thinking.) A standard yardstick would work as well.

Lee

MattKing · Jul 1, 2009

The complex I live in has picket gates across one of the entrances which make for useful focus checks. Here is an example of a check I performed after cleaning the viewing system on a Mamiya C220.

Matt

P.S. I think my neighbours wonder about me.

pepo007 · Jul 8, 2009

Almost last decision...

So after yours kind advices I have two options:

1. Elmarit 90 2.8 (last type)

2. Summicron 90 2.0 (pre Asph)

How will I recognize , which is last pre-asph. version of Summicron and how you will compare them side by side?

Thx again

Pepo

John Koehrer · Jul 8, 2009

Third version non-aspherical serial numbers ran frpm approximately 2,800,000 to approximately 3,750,000.
And they took 49 or 55mm filters. The earlier version took 48mm. 55mm will be newer.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jul 9, 2009

pepo007 said:
So after yours kind advices I have two options:

1. Elmarit 90 2.8 (last type)

2. Summicron 90 2.0 (pre Asph)

Pepo

Again, the only real advantage of the Summicron is portraits or if you're shooting low light situations (theatre, concerts).

Otherwise, the Elmarit is smaller, lighter, cheaper and will look sharper.

budrichard · Jul 9, 2009

For the work you describe(concert), the Summicron is the only choice. As to the Pre ASPH being "slightly soft" and all the other meaningless subjective analysis, It's all in the mind of the beholder.
I have a chrome pre-ASPH and a black ASPH Summicron. In side by side shot analysis at f2.0. there is no discernable difference. Purchase as late(date of manufacture) black pre ASPH as you can find, from a user that was more of a collector(many users never really use thier equipment) because the black lens will weigh substantially less than the chrome and the newer the lens, the better in terms of possible fungus and other problems. You will then have one of the best 90mm lenses ever made and won't ever need another one unless you believe in 'bokeh' and all the other crap you read about subjective lens criteria. Focus on your picture taking rather than meaningless subjective criteria. -Dick

Venchka · Jul 9, 2009

I would save a lot of money. Start low. Work my way up the price ladder. Buying and reselling as I went along.

Nikkor 85/2.0 or similar Canon, both in LTM. $200.
Leitz 90mm/2.8 Elmarit (early) or 90mm/2.8 M-Hexanon. $400.
Canon 85/2.0 (last, black) or Canon 100/2.0 (last, black). $600. Guessing on price. I may be off, but not as expensive as Leitz.

I think the world of my $200 Nikkor 85mm and $350 90mm Elmarit. I really like all the other stuff I bought with the extra money.

Venchka · Nov 21, 2009

There's more...............

Venchka said:
I would save a lot of money. Start low. Work my way up the price ladder. Buying and reselling as I went along.

Nikkor 85/2.0 or similar Canon, both in LTM. $200.
Leitz 90mm/2.8 Elmarit (early) or 90mm/2.8 M-Hexanon. $400.
Canon 85/2.0 (last, black) or Canon 100/2.0 (last, black). $600. Guessing on price. I may be off, but not as expensive as Leitz.

I think the world of my $200 Nikkor 85mm and $350 90mm Elmarit. I really like all the other stuff I bought with the extra money.

Update: I recently acquired a very low mileage copy of the last 90mm/2.8 Elmarit-M, vintage 2001. I will now attempt to decide how many lenses between 85mm and 90mm one should own. The Mistress of the Treasury says, "One!"

It will be interesting to compare 3 different lenses from 3 different decades.

df cardwell · Nov 21, 2009

As the cost of older lenses have climbed (Canon/Nikon LTM) the ZM Sonnar seems to be a better and better prospect.

There isn't a BAD lens in the lot, and it just depends how much you have to spend. However lovely, say, a '70s Summicron is, and how well built it is, it is often 80% of a new Sonnar, which will blow the old Summi away.

But I'll never give up the old Summi I've shot with for 39 years ! Maybe picking up a hot new lens ? Well, maybe.

It REALLY doesn't matter. Good luck

lens_hacker · Nov 21, 2009

That ZM Sonnar is still over $2,000, isn't it? My mint LTM Nikkor 8.5cm f2 was $300, and my Canon 85/2 was $100. The latter required the inner surfaces to be cleaned, an easy DIY job. The Canon 85/2 is an underrated bargain.

df cardwell · Nov 21, 2009

lens_hacker said:
That ZM Sonnar is still over $2,000, isn't it?

My gosh, you're right ! I was delirious, I was. WHAT WAS I THINKING ??!!??

Hunting down a Nikkor or Canon at a good price is a great solution.

Nice catch.

don

mudman · Nov 21, 2009

For concerts you're going to want f2.

Tim Gray · Nov 22, 2009

I can't think of a good reason to get the Zeiss. That thing is expensive. If you need the extra stop, get the APO ASPH. I think you will be very happy with it. If not, get the Elmarit. Just as good (more or less), just a stop slower.

If I ever run across the APO for a good price, I might pick one up. It seems to go for less than it should.

nsouto · Nov 25, 2009

pepo007 said:
Hi I heard stuff, like sometimes lenses (or rangefinders) must be calibrated? Since these lenses are Leicas and I have Zeiss camera, do I need to calibrated them is some way?

The Zeiss ZM rangefinder has a slight problem with some of the older Leica lenses.

The problem is that the focusing cam of some Leicas is very thin and near the edge of the mount.

The ZM does not focus well with these.

If you look at the mount of ZM or Voigtlander M lenses, you'll notice that the focusing cam is much thicker and slightly more inward.

I've "fixed" some of my older Leica lenses (converted LTMs and older "crons") by gluing a plastic lip to the focusing cam which has brought it back to the same position as the ZM and Voigtlanders.

Some of the Jupiters also suffer from this problem.

Not a biggie, just be aware of it. You don't want to adjust your camera to every lens, the opposite is the best approach!

Vincenzo Maielli · Nov 27, 2009

For my metered M Leicas i use a Summicron 90 TS (1969), a superb spectacular lens, a very bit little less sharp than a modern APO Summicron, but very better as bokeh. With a Leica M3 i use a Nikkor 85/2 LTM, a very good lens. I also own a lovely Jupiter 9 85 that i use on my Leica CL, and a super sharp VC Apo Lanthar 90/3.5, that i use on Canon 7. A little fixed about rangefinders? Maybe... Maybe...
Ciao.
Vincenzo

Venchka · Nov 28, 2009

Did the OP buy a lens yet?

I had a chance to use my new 2001 90mm Elmarit-M yesterday. It handles nicely. I do wish that the hood had some kind of detent to hold it out. It doesn't, but it didn't slide in by itself either. I was very pleased with it's handling. 90% of the photos were wide open and minimum distance. Since the film was Provia 100F, it will be a week+ before I see the results. For less than the cost of the M-Hexanon or my 1965 Elmarit, I think this lens was a genuine bargain.

Vanishing Point Ent. · Dec 9, 2009

The Voigtlander 90 mm f 3.5 APO-Lanthar.

And Although it's a stop & a half slower, don't forget the
Voigtlander 90 mm f 3.5 APO-Lanthar.

If you can live with the f 3.5, it's a very sharp lens.

Perhaps the Voigtlander for P.J. It doesn't cost that much.
P.J., is where it will get beaten up.

Then save the heavier f 2.0 for the concerts, using it, only when you need it.

Which tele, Summicron, Elmarit or Sonnar?

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