Which paper to choose

aca91 · May 21, 2011

Hello APUG,

I want to get some advice regarding what kind of paper I should get. I will be traveling next week to Europe, and I was hoping to buy some paper there: the question is which. I have used mostly Ilford RC papers (Warmtone, Cooltone and Portfolio) in 8x10 size, but im looking forward to make bigger prints. I was thinking on a graded fiber-based paper, since I have also worked with very old Ilfobrom paper and I love the results. My main choice would be Ilford Gallerie and Beer's Formulae to control contrast, but I have read in AA's The Print that this paper is not very responsive to toners in terms of color. I don't know what to do. I'm on a budget, so im looking for:

1) An all purpose paper (i.e. one that can possibly be Warmtone, Cooltone and Neutral depending on processing)
2) A high quality paper (whatever this means. Also, now that I realize, I would like someone if possible to explain what "good quality" means and how it gets measured)
3) A paper that would ask me to try different formulas and not just Dektol, a paper responsive to variations in developers and toners.

Thank you very much, I appreciate your help.

AC

2F/2F · May 21, 2011

I'd try Adox MCC110. It's beautiful, versatile, and very affordable compared to many papers (though this may not be the case in Europe).

Edtog · May 21, 2011

Same here, try ADOX.

K-G · May 21, 2011

Depending on what country/countries you go to :
1. When in Berlin , go to Fotoimpex and buy ADOX MCC 110 as mentioned by 2F/2F and Edtog.
2. When in London , go to Silverprint an buy both ILFORD Gallerie and ILFORD Multigrade Warmtone.
All these papers are of very high quality and my personal favourite is the MCC 110.
Good luck on your trip.

Karl-Gustaf

http://www.fotoimpex.de/

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/

Jeff Kubach · May 21, 2011

I will go with Adox also.

Jeff

aca91 · May 21, 2011

Thanks for your answers. According to Adams's The Print "Both Kodak and Ilford are currently making papers that include a developing agent in the emulsion layer [...] Unfortunately, though, almost no development control is possible, since these papers develop fully so rapidly." Is this the case with MCC110? Also, what kind of developer do you recommend to use with it, and how does it react to toners?. Thank you again.

outwest · May 21, 2011

And don't put it in your checked bag;-)

aca91 · May 21, 2011

I was actually thinking in putting it in my checked bag :/. I will not have much space, and, as long as I've read here on APUG, paper can handle checked luggage x-rays, doesn't it?

2F/2F · May 21, 2011

Ansel Adam's died in the 1980's, so anything he had to say on the issue relates to materials available at that time, at latest. What Adams may have been talking about was using developer time to tweak contrast. You can do that a bit, but I wouldn't say you can do it anywhere near as severely or repeatably as you can with film. But using different developers, and different dilutions of developers, can change tonality and hue quite a lot. MCC 110 (and most other high-quality papers) will react fine to developer changes and toning. That is what you asked for in the OP, after all, so that is part of why I suggested it, among other reasons.

I wouldn't put any radiation-sensitive item in checked baggage.

Are you buying it in Europe because you actually will be printing there, or because you think you will be able to get better prices and/or find papers not available elsewhere? All of this stuff can be found at Freestyle for pretty good prices. I wouldn't bother self-importing it.

aca91 · May 21, 2011

I don't live in the US, so bringing it from Europe is more reasonable than buying it at Freestyle.
Thanks for your answer.

2F/2F · May 21, 2011

Where are you located?

Roger Cole · May 21, 2011

aca91 said:
Thanks for your answers. According to Adams's The Print "Both Kodak and Ilford are currently making papers that include a developing agent in the emulsion layer [...] Unfortunately, though, almost no development control is possible, since these papers develop fully so rapidly." Is this the case with MCC110? Also, what kind of developer do you recommend to use with it, and how does it react to toners?. Thank you again.

What 2F said about the date. But what Adam's was talking about with developer incorporated emulsions was some of the RC papers of that time. I well remember them. The developing agent was incorporated into the emulsion to speed machine processing. It made the paper develop very fully very quickly. It worked fine for tray development but the image appeared suddenly after about 20-30 seconds in the developer and was pretty much fully developed and done by one minute. Pulling it before it completed was a recipe for a dull, muddy print.

I'm not aware of anyone making such paper now. You can also disregard most of what Adams said about other papers. I just checked my copy of The Print. The copyright is 1983. Anything he had to say about specific brands and types of materials is at least 28 years out of date.

aca91 · May 21, 2011

Roger, thank you very much for your answer, I'll keep that in mind. It seems confusing that even if that information is outdated Kodak suggests one minute of developing time (Dektol 1:2) for most RC papers. I'll see if I can find more information regarding that. 2F/2F; I live in Colombia, South America. The product offer is very limited (except for bargains at flea markets!) and everything tends to be terribly expensive for a student on a budget (original price + 10% of importing taxes + 16% of regular tax + shipping if I were to buy from Freestyle, or that + seller earning if I were to buy something here directly). Foma is a very popular brand over here: also Oriental has been around lately, but I don't see anyone suggesting them (why?). Also, most of the papers available are convenient RCVC, but I want to try something else. Ilford offer is also very limited. I have bought previously form Freestyle, but mostly asking them to ship it somewhere in the U.S. if a friend or a relative is traveling and can bring it to me in his way back.

Roger Thoms · May 21, 2011

I'll also recommend MCC110, it's my current favorite paper. I just tried Oriental for the first time and thought it was a nice paper, so if it is available locally I would definitely try it.

Roger

2F/2F · May 21, 2011

Oriental is my #1 paper. But I don't think it responds quite as strongly to developer changes or toning, so I didn't suggest it. But, as I said, it is my main paper. I love it's "crispness," if you will.

K-G · May 21, 2011

I used Fomabrom Variant 111 ( glossy ) a few years ago and I definitely regard it as a very good paper. After testing I found that both MCC 110 and Ilford Multigrade IV could give an even deeper black tone and MCC 110 also has that slight warm tone when developed normally and not toned. Thats why I have concentrated on MCC 110 nowadays. If Foma is easyly accessible in Colombia, it may be better for you to try to get the best out of it. Variable contrast papers of today are all so good that it is more important to learn how to master the character of one paper than going back and forth between different brands.
If you want to buy from a European country ( Germany or Britain ), check on the web-sites for Fotoimpex and Silverprint . There you can get the cost for freight and also see what the final price will be as you don't pay local sales tax when the goods are sent directly to you.

Karl-Gustaf

Roger Cole · May 21, 2011

aca91 said:
Roger, thank you very much for your answer, I'll keep that in mind. It seems confusing that even if that information is outdated Kodak suggests one minute of developing time (Dektol 1:2) for most RC papers. I'll see if I can find more information regarding that.

Kodak suggested one minute times when, back then with the developer incorporated emulsion? I was out of photography when they quit making paper so I don't know if it still had the developing agent in it or not. One minute is just about exactly right for such papers. More does no harm but makes no noticeable change either. Less can be bad. If they suggest one minute with later papers all I can say is that I disagree. I like 2-3 for RC and 3-5 for FB. I know these are on the long side of what's usually recommended, I just found most papers look richer and better to me with a longer development time (aside from those old developer incorporated ones, for which one minute did all that was going to be done.)

I think Multigrade III was developer incorporated - or was it II? Anyway, both Ilford and Kodak made such papers. You didn't really even need developer. Just activator from a stabilization machine would do it, though the papers didn't stabilize. You could just use the activator and run them through the machine and into the fixer.

mooseontheloose · May 21, 2011

I, for one, am a big fan of the Foma papers. When I left Europe I brought a bunch of boxes with me back to Canada because the sizes I like (9.5x12) are not available in North America. Why don't you try the Foma and Oriental papers that you have available to you there? You might find that you like them, and if so, they'd be readily available to you. Also, Europe is not cheap for paper or anything photographic, in fact, worldwide, probably the US is your best bet (such as Freestyle). When I lived in France I used to order from Freestyle because it was cheaper than buying locally or ordering from Silverprint. And that's with shipping, duty, taxes, everything.

Another idea would be to buy a variety of papers (one box of each) that are not available to you in Columbia, bring them back with you, and then order/stick with the one that you like.

I know that this is an expensive option but unfortunately photography is not a cheap hobby, student or not.

mooseontheloose · May 21, 2011

Just another thought: it's worth pricing out the papers to see if they really are more expensive in other countries/shops. I was curious myself, so here's a quick rundown between some of the papers mentioned for this question. All prices converted to US dollars. Silverprint prices include VAT (assuming you buy direct from them). These are for 25 sheet boxes, of course, 100 sheet boxes will be cheaper (per sheet) (if available).

Adox MCC110 (25 sheets, 8x10). Silverprint $35.06 (1.40/sheet) Freestyle $25.99 (1.04/sheet)
Ilford Galerie (25 sheets, 8x10). Silverprint $43.08 (1.72/sheet) Freestyle $44.99 (1.80/sheet)
Kentmere VCFB (25 sheets, 8x10). Silverprint $25.84 (1.03/sheet) Freestyle $22.59 (0.90/sheet)

Sorry, Silverprint doesn't carry Oriental, and the sizes of Foma papers are different in the US (8x10, 11x14) as opposed to the UK (9.5x12, 12x16) which makes price comparisons difficult.

Anyway, hope that helps.

MattKing · May 21, 2011

Kodak's suggestion (see publication E103cp - revised 10/2010) for print developing time in Dektol (1+2 dilution) reads as follows:

"68°F (20°C)
3/4 to 3 minutes for RC papers;
3/4 to 4 minutes for fiberbase papers"

I would guess that RC paper tends to be adjusted to permit quick(er) development, because if anyone wants a print quickly, they are more likely to use RC paper.

Here is a link to e103cp: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e103cp/e103cp.pdf

Which paper to choose

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