Which methods do you use to gelatine size, and why?

pdeeh · Sep 9, 2016

I've sized paper with gelatine for various alt processes (cyano, salt, sepiaprint, vdb - the "easy" ones ) in a number of different ways ... I've soaked whole sheets of paper in gel, I've brushed it, I've used a foam pad, I've floated it and I've puddle-pushed and puddle-pulled. I've even tried pouring. Plus of course I've tried different % gels -- 2%, 3%, 5%, 10% and on one memorable occasion 20% (don't try that one unless you have excellent temperature control and a high tolerance for mess)

I'm still not sure which one I prefer or is "best" for me, so my experiments will continue, but I'd also be interested to know which methods other people have used, which ones they prefer and why.

Bob Carnie · Sep 9, 2016

I mount my paper to aluminum to avoid shrinkage and do not see the benefit of sizing, maybe you could elaborate why you size with gelatine , I can see the possibility of a coating for multiple gum hits in my work but have not tried to see if this makes a difference yet.

pdeeh · Sep 9, 2016

ah but bob you do it for a living whereas I'm just doing it for my own amusement. and I think from my reading here and elsewhere that plenty of alt printers also size with gelatine and other tings.

I'm not looking for tutorials, or a debate about whether to size or not, just interested in what others do.

fwiw, I size for textural reasons, and for colour variations, but I've made plenty of prints on unsized paper. I experimented with an albumen size and the surface was beautiful where it wasn't uneven or bubbly. I expect I'll explore that again one day, but this thread is about gelatine.

Bob Carnie · Sep 9, 2016

Oh believe me I do it for my own amusement , printing alt prints for others is a very small part of my life.

textural and colour variations are interesting reasons, I thought about gelatin as a final coat to protect the image.

Simon Howers · Sep 10, 2016

I use gelatine size on textured papers to reduce emulsion wasteage and to provide a smoother more detailed image.
I use a wide flat art brush in a criss-cross pattern to avoid gaps.
Sizing can avoid papers causing iron based chemistry to fade, but it's a bit hit and miss. I prefer to presoak the paper in
oxalic acid first.

CMB · Sep 13, 2016

"I mount my paper to aluminum to avoid shrinkage and do not see the benefit of sizing"

An important benefit of sizing is that it keeps the pigment particles on or above the surface of the paper instead of falling into the the cellulose fiber crevices which obscure and reduce the “luminosity” of the colors. See “the secret of glowing color” http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech16.html for an in-depth discussion of this.

NedL · Sep 13, 2016

CMB said:
"I mount my paper to aluminum to avoid shrinkage and do not see the benefit of sizing"

An important benefit of sizing is that it keeps the pigment particles on or above the surface of the paper instead of falling into the the cellulose fiber crevices which obscure and reduce the “luminosity” of the colors. See “the secret of glowing color” http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech16.html for an in-depth discussion of this.

That's a neat site, thanks... I got distracted reading there, and then suddenly came across a photograph taken using my tripod holes!
( I think my composition and rear tilt actually addresses his concern about the sense of proportion, at least partly. So a large format camera might be an alternative to digital perspective changes in photoshop... since I know that view very well, his manipulation looks very strange to me. )

Bruce MacEvoy's photo is about 4/5ths of the way down this page.
A salt print from my photo is here, and a paper negative of the same view is here.

Sorry for going completely off topic to this thread... I was just surprised to see that photograph!!

pdeeh · Sep 14, 2016

Nothing like a bit of off topic natter, Ned -- but how about telling me/us/the world about your sizing technique too ?

Bob Carnie · Sep 14, 2016

CMB said:
"I mount my paper to aluminum to avoid shrinkage and do not see the benefit of sizing"

An important benefit of sizing is that it keeps the pigment particles on or above the surface of the paper instead of falling into the the cellulose fiber crevices which obscure and reduce the “luminosity” of the colors. See “the secret of glowing color” http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech16.html for an in-depth discussion of this.

thank you Charles

BrianShaw · Sep 14, 2016

pdeeh said:
Nothing like a bit of off topic natter, Ned -- but how about telling me/us/the world about your sizing technique too ?

I had to stop my alt printing quite a while ago (but hope to get back to it some day). I struggled with gelatin sizing as you described in the first post. My solution was to use spray starch instead. Usually several applications.

NedL · Sep 14, 2016

pdeeh said:
Nothing like a bit of off topic natter, Ned -- but how about telling me/us/the world about your sizing technique too ?

I don't really have one. When I add gelatin to the salting solution for salt printing, I don't think of it as sizing. I think of it mainly as color control, with a side effect that it can make the image look a little sharper by lifting it slightly off the surface of the paper. Most of the papers I've tried look good without any added gelatin.

In one of my early tests, an example that stood out as very different from all the others was: using a lot of gelatin ( I think it was 2%, would need to check my notes ), print quite deeply, followed by full strength gold thiocyanate toning to completion. The result was an almost artificial looking sharpness with neutral colors. I thought it looked harsh, almost clinical, and didn't like it... more "photographic" and without delicate highlights. Some people might like that look, but when I add gelatin I try not to go too far in that direction. So I actually try to restrain the sizing effect of gelatin, if that makes sense!

pdeeh · Sep 16, 2016

As humorous posts (mine and others) have been deleted from this thread for apparently no better reason than a moderator has had a sense of humour failure, I'll put this thread on ignore now.

Others of course are welcome to continue with it, but I do wonder what the f*cking point is sometimes

BrianShaw · Sep 16, 2016

What a sad way for a good and useful discussion to end.

Bob Carnie · Sep 16, 2016

BrianShaw said:
What a sad way for a good and useful discussion to end.

Sorry am I missing something, I see not deleted posts here at my end ,

NedL · Sep 16, 2016

Bob, there was at least one post that was sarcastic humor and quite amusing. It disappeared completely, without a placeholder to show it ever existed.
It was just lighthearted banter, something that makes conversations on APUG more enjoyable.

Truzi · Sep 16, 2016

Bob Carnie said:
Sorry am I missing something, I see not deleted posts here at my end ,

I think the new system does not leave place-marks like the old did, and there seems to also be a trend of removing threads instead of closing them. I too have noticed things disappear more frequently lately. I've seen this before on other (non-photography) boards. It follows a fairly slow but predictable pattern.

NedL said:
...It was just lighthearted banter, something that makes conversations on APUG more enjoyable.

Yes, things like that turn a sterile online reference into an actual online community.

dwross · Sep 16, 2016

Memory holes, and I agree. More, and more frequently, and in more places. Hard not to think we're on a march to 1984.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 16, 2016

The only time I use gelatin is to make carbon transfer tissues... When I first started, I gelatin sized my paper by rolling it on with a stainless steel pipe with masking tape on the ends. I wasn't digging the look and eventually settled on acrylic mediums, matte and glossy. I also make Kallitypes as is, or Carbon Transfer over Kallitype (which hopefully I'll bring to the Pacifica Alt Photo Symposium tomorrow in Vancouver). I have never sized papers for the Kallitype process... has anyone out there done so?

Which methods do you use to gelatine size, and why?

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