which LF camera offers more?

heinrich voelkel · Mar 19, 2007

Dear friends at the forum,

I'm trying to figure out what to do. I'm not new to LF, shooting 4x5 for more than 10 years now.
I do own a Grafley Anniversary and Busch Pressman, which I like both, but...I was looking at a more capable camera to fit with myself, I want more rise, more wideangle capability and so on. I thought I need a rail based view camera. Today I had to shoot some architecture with a Sinar f2 and I hated the sucker. Too big, too clunky, to much pain in the a... to set up. Basically I disguised it, after so many years I used one day by day.

Okay, I looked at the Shen Hao and what I like about it, that you can move the back forward to fit for wide angle use. I have no idea how short ( lenswise) is usable on this camera, but I liked the feature.

Now I ask you. Should I look for a ARCA or is there anything out there, wooden field camera, sturdy, well build, cheap ;-) , I can use for landscape, architecture, cityscapes and portrait work.

I like to travel light, but not afraid of gear.

Huh, any suggestions?

Thanks in advance....

Heinrich

David H. Bebbington · Mar 20, 2007

You will find this subject covered in quite a few old posts, but briefly, in wanting something sturdy, versatile, well-built and cheap, your problem is with "cheap"! The "price no object" answer would be something like a Linhof Technikardan or, for extreme compactness, a Toho View (quite amazingly small). But these aren't cheap! If you need to do architecture, you really need extensive rising front and good ability to focus short lenses, which in turn really demands interchangeable bellows and excludes good general traveling cameras such as Speed Graphic and most wooden field cameras (although some do have modular bellows). There is an answer somewhere, but as a general rule, precision and lightness cost money!

Regards,

David

Pinholemaster · Mar 20, 2007

I love wooden field cameras, I own several. When push comes to shove with a situation that needs a well machined camera that can go to extremes, I pull out my Arca-Swiss.

The bottom line is there IS no one camera that can do it all.

I don't use my Arca for portraiture. For portraits, I fall back on my RB Graflex 4x5 SLR, or my Speed Graphic (soon I'll add a 5x7 Graflex SLR after I restore it).

eclarke · Mar 20, 2007

heinrich voelkel said:
Dear friends at the forum,

I'm trying to figure out what to do. I'm not new to LF, shooting 4x5 for more than 10 years now.
I do own a Grafley Anniversary and Busch Pressman, which I like both, but...I was looking at a more capable camera to fit with myself, I want more rise, more wideangle capability and so on. I thought I need a rail based view camera. Today I had to shoot some architecture with a Sinar f2 and I hated the sucker. Too big, too clunky, to much pain in the a... to set up. Basically I disguised it, after so many years I used one day by day.

Okay, I looked at the Shen Hao and what I like about it, that you can move the back forward to fit for wide angle use. I have no idea how short ( lenswise) is usable on this camera, but I liked the feature.

Now I ask you. Should I look for a ARCA or is there anything out there, wooden field camera, sturdy, well build, cheap ;-) , I can use for landscape, architecture, cityscapes and portrait work.

I like to travel light, but not afraid of gear.

Huh, any suggestions?

Thanks in advance....

Heinrich

Hi Heinrich,
I am an Arcaphile but have a number of others as well, all new and modern. The new 141 Arca Swiss F Metric with Orbix is the all in one camera, just superb...Evan Clarke

TheFlyingCamera · Mar 20, 2007

If you are on a tight budget, I can recommend the Shen Hao. I have used it for architecture work before, and it has pulled through admirably. With the standard bellows installed, you can focus a 90mm to infinity, but movements are difficult. If you get the bag bellows (a $100 option), your only limit to movements are the image circle of the lens and the mechanical constraints of the camera itself. You can even mount a 75mm on it with a flat lens board and get infinity focus with NO movements, or again, be limited by the image circle of the lens with the bag bellows. I have not used anything wider than a 75mm, so I can't say from personal experience, but I believe you can go as wide as 58mm on a flat lensboard with the bag bellows. You may need or want a recessed board for the 58 anyway. No, the Shen Hao is not as precise or well-machined as the Arca-Swiss, but it will certainly do the job and bring home the bacon until you have the cash for buying the Arca-Swiss.

Roger Hicks · Mar 20, 2007

Dear Heinrich,

As others have noted, the problem lies in 'cheap'.

The most versatile field camera I know -- and I cover this topic for Shutterbug magazine -- is the Gandolfi Variant Level III. It's also extremely sturdy. Unsurprisingly it is also one of the heaviest and if you don't need all the movements there are Levels II and I also. As well as movements that put many monorails to shame, it has interchangeable rear standards for 5x7/13x18 and 8x10/20x24. You can get double-extension, triple-extension and bag bellows.

For ultralight monorails, as someone else has already said, Toho (not Toyo) are unbeatable, but the bellows are fixed. On the other hand you can get an eccentric lens panel to allow as much movement as you are likely to need with a 47mm lens on a rollfilm back.

For portable, versatile monorails if you don't mind the price (and they can be found at bargain prices used) and if you can stand more weight than the Toho FC45X, the Linhof Technikardan is superb.

I actually have all three, as a result of a series of historical accidents...

I fully take your point about Sinars -- I find 'em clunky, too -- and although I've not owned Arcas, several of my friends love them and I have always been impressed by them when I have handled them at shows. Shen Haos are bargain-priced but I'd go for a used Technikardan before a Shen Hao, which has the least movements of any of the cameras mentioned in this post. It's all a series of compromises on size, weight, versatility, smoothness, interchangeable bellows, bellows draw, movements...

Cheers,

R. (www.rogerandfrances.com)

HerrBremerhaven · Mar 20, 2007

I own and use a Shen-Hao HZX45A-II for architecture, automotive, advertising, lifestyle and fashion photography. So far in just over one year of use, I have yet to run into problems or limitations with it. As far as shortness of bellows, there are a few tricks to get the front lensboard within about 35mm to 38mm distance from the rear; meaning just about any large format lens could be used (in theory).

Probably something of more importance would be identifying which lenses you anticipate (or want) to use. I don't think my Shen-Hao would be that great for lenses much longer than 300mm, though I don't have any interest in using anything beyond 210mm. On the shorter end of things, my interest (and composition choices) stop in the 72mm to 75mm range. My most used lens is a 135mm on a flat board.

If I could justify buying an Arca-Swiss Misura, I might like it better, just because I like the industrial design and style of the camera. While the way a camera looks probably has little to do with practical aspects or functions, I don't see anything wrong with inserting a little passion into your purchase. Maybe another personal choice, though if you like your camera you might find you want to use it more often . . . I like my Shen-Hao.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Loose Gravel · Mar 20, 2007

I had a metal Canham until recently. I too like wooden cameras and I found the Canham to be unfriendly. I am now using an Ebony. They make a nice variety of models. The craftsmanship is amazing. Something to consider.

TheFlyingCamera · Mar 20, 2007

Ebony and Cheap don't even belong in the same paragraph. Yes they're beautiful cameras, beautifully made. But the cheapest Ebony is still going to run you well over $1500 even used.

Part of the problem you're going to run into here is that the original question was asking for an apples/oranges/pineapples comparison. It is hard to adequately compare and recommend cameras across types.

Roger- are you sure you've used a Shen-Hao? I can about tie the bellows on that thing in knots - it has more movements than most field cameras costing two or three times as much. Front swing is somewhat limited, but it has rise/fall/tilt/swing on the front, and rise/swing/tilt/shift on the rear. The rear standard can be slid forward on the bed to assist with focusing wide-angles and keep the bed out of the field of view. Interchangeable bellows top off the most-desired-accessories list. It will accommodate Graflok accessories, so you can use it with roll-film backs, polaroid backs, and quickload/readyload holders. And it is cheap.

heinrich voelkel · Mar 20, 2007

The most versatile field camera I know -- and I cover this topic for Shutterbug magazine -- is the Gandolfi Variant Level III. It's also extremely sturdy. Unsurprisingly it is also one of the heaviest and if you don't need all the movements there are Levels II and I also. As well as movements that put many monorails to shame, it has interchangeable rear standards for 5x7/13x18 and 8x10/20x24. You can get double-extension, triple-extension and bag bellows.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I was in the market for a used Gandolfi Variant Level II some time ago. Asking for some user replies here on APUG, the consent was, just don't do it, don't buy one, because of various reasons.

Technikardan sounds quite interesting...thank you

heinrich voelkel · Mar 20, 2007

Thank you all for your suggestions.

For me cheap is relative. I was thinking: "I'm not going to buy an Ebony new" but rather something cheaper. 4x5 is passion for me, even if I use it on assignments.

The Shenhao idea is funded by the design of the camera, I want to use short lenses 75 with movements, maybe 65 with a little rise. I love my 135mm lenses and I like the 210 mm as well. I would like to add a 300 some day, but somehow don't see me using it too often.

I just like the versatility and the craftsmanship of the Arca, but the service even here in Europe is a pain. I would love to have a wooden field.

If I go on a trip for some days or weeks, I can take only one camera. I know about apple, oranges and melons, but have to find something in the middle.

I'm really interested in user opinions, like what kind of camera you use for what kind of photography. Maybe with some links added so I can see it for myself.

Thank you all for your input and thoughts.

Regrds
Heinrich

Roger Hicks · Mar 20, 2007

Dear FlyingCamera,

I didn't say the ShenHao had poor movements: I just said it had fewer/smaller movements than any of the other cameras I mentioned, which I am confident is true. Also, I'm not wild about the finish and smoothness, though both have improved steadily and the last one I handled (in October last year) was pretty good.

Dear Heinrich,

What, as a matter of interest, were the objections to the Variant? Yes, it's big and heavy, but that's all I'd complain about (and I did mention them in the post). I'm not trying to argue with you, nor do I take your remarks as disrespectful; I'm just a bit surprised.

When I'm flying, I use the Toho. The Variant normally has the 5x7 back on it, so I often use the Technikardan instead if I'm away from the studio.

Cheers,

R.

heinrich voelkel · Mar 20, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Heinrich,

As others have noted, the problem lies in 'cheap'.

The most versatile field camera I know -- and I cover this topic for Shutterbug magazine -- is the Gandolfi Variant Level III. It's also extremely sturdy. Unsurprisingly it is also one of the heaviest and if you don't need all the movements there are Levels II and I also. As well as movements that put many monorails to shame, it has interchangeable rear standards for 5x7/13x18 and 8x10/20x24. You can get double-extension, triple-extension and bag bellows.

For ultralight monorails, as someone else has already said, Toho (not Toyo) are unbeatable, but the bellows are fixed. On the other hand you can get an eccentric lens panel to allow as much movement as you are likely to need with a 47mm lens on a rollfilm back.

For portable, versatile monorails if you don't mind the price (and they can be found at bargain prices used) and if you can stand more weight than the Toho FC45X, the Linhof Technikardan is superb.

I actually have all three, as a result of a series of historical accidents...

I fully take your point about Sinars -- I find 'em clunky, too -- and although I've not owned Arcas, several of my friends love them and I have always been impressed by them when I have handled them at shows. Shen Haos are bargain-priced but I'd go for a used Technikardan before a Shen Hao, which has the least movements of any of the cameras mentioned in this post. It's all a series of compromises on size, weight, versatility, smoothness, interchangeable bellows, bellows draw, movements...

Cheers,

R. (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Hello, I looked at your website and I liked the technika conversion a lot, wow. How much would that cost?

And yes ALPA!!!!!!!

But I want the larger neg, too bad...

Regrds
Heinrich

Roger Hicks · Mar 20, 2007

heinrich voelkel said:
Hello, I looked at your website and I liked the technika conversion a lot, wow. How much would that cost?

Dear Heinrich,

Less than you might expect, but that's only a 6x9cm too. I've forgotten the exact price, and I got a special deal, but if you're interested, the guy who did it was Bill Orford in the UK, www.photographicrepairs.co.uk, tel. +44 (0) 1793 60 50 25, bill@photographicrepairs.co.uk.

Cheers,

R.

heinrich voelkel · Mar 20, 2007

I know, for business reasons 6x9 is enough, but for the heart. I don't know. I will try to get a quote from them...

Do you have a bigger picture of the technika setup, to have a closer look at it.

Thank you...

David Nardi · Mar 20, 2007

heinrich voelkel said:
Dear friends at the forum,

Now I ask you. Should I look for a ARCA or is there anything out there, wooden field camera, sturdy, well build, cheap ;-) , I can use for landscape, architecture, cityscapes and portrait work.

I like to travel light, but not afraid of gear.

Huh, any suggestions?

Thanks in advance....

Heinrich

I use a Bender Photographic 4x5 wooden monorail view camera for landscapes. It is light, cheap, sturdy, and easy to carry. I carry mine in a Super Trekker broken down in the three main parts (front standard, monorail with riders, and rear standard with bellows attached).

As with any camera its not perfect but I find that it fullfills my needs, especially with the full movement potential of the front and rear standards of a monorail view camera.

Limitations:

At first you must build-it-yourself.
90mm lens is widest. Camera can be modified to accept down to 58mm.
A little extra time needed when switching from bag bellows to pleated bellows or short rail to long rail.
Friction locks are great for their own reasons but may slip if not tightened down enough.

Have a look at www.benderphoto.com for full specs.

Cheers,

David

David S. Nardi Photography
www.davidnardi.com

Ole · Mar 20, 2007

My 4x5" camera is a Carbon Infinity, and that's possibly the most versatile 4x5" ever made. Pity they're rare, and expensive - if you can find one at all. Mine handles everything from 65mm to 540mm on flat lensboards and normal bellows, and I have a bag bellows if I should ever need to go even shorter! If "price no object" that's what you should be lookking for.

I've never owned a wooden 4x5", so I can't say anything about those. I do have a 5x7" Gandolfi Traditional, and I just bought a 8x10" of the same... Less movements, but more than sufficient for 99.9% of the pictures I take.

sanking · Mar 21, 2007

Unless you are doing a lot of architectural photography I suggest that the most versatile 4X5 camera for a beginner who plans to do a lot of work in the field is a folding bed wood camera. If economy is a consideration I would strongly recommend Shen Hao for quality build and extensive movements. It is not the best 4X5 in the world, but when you weigh cost and utility it ranks at the very top. If cost is no issue, then go for an Ebony. If you are more traditional in outlook, look for a used Deardorff or Gandolfini, or Tachihara or Zone VII, etc. If cost is no issue and you like innovative designs look at the Canham wooden and metal folding field cameras.

I would also suggest that you buy used. Since your goals don't appear to be very focused at this time it is possible/likely that you will want to replace the camera that you buy now with another one in a year or so. If you buy used chances are you will recoup most of your investment when you decide to sell.

Sandy King

Roger Hicks · Mar 21, 2007

heinrich voelkel said:
I know, for business reasons 6x9 is enough, but for the heart. I don't know. I will try to get a quote from them...

Do you have a bigger picture of the technika setup, to have a closer look at it.

Thank you...

Dear Heinrich,

No, sorry, no bigger picture.

What I REALLY like is 3x enlargements off Linhof '6x7' (=56x72mm). These, obviously, are 168x216mm. The old 'whole plate' size is 165x216mm. With most films and developers you can't tell the enlargement from a whole plate contact print. As far as I can see, 3x is the normal limit for this.

Cheers,

R.

heinrich voelkel · Mar 21, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Heinrich,

No, sorry, no bigger picture.

What I REALLY like is 3x enlargements off Linhof '6x7' (=56x72mm). These, obviously, are 168x216mm. The old 'whole plate' size is 165x216mm. With most films and developers you can't tell the enlargement from a whole plate contact print. As far as I can see, 3x is the normal limit for this.

Cheers,

R.

Sorry Roger I don't get it. Do you say: you do only enlargements 3 times the neg. size as of "linhof-6x7"? and the quality up to 3times is equal to 4x5?

Is 6x9 usable with this setup or rather limited? what is the widest lens you use on this?

Regards Heinrich

heinrich voelkel · Mar 21, 2007

to all of you. to clarify things:

- I'm not a beginner, I shoot Largeformat for more than 10 years

- I like the Shenhao for its possibility to move the rear forward for wideangle use. I don't use a lot of movements, rise and fall and some swing, shift.

-price is of concern, but I will buy what works and delivers the results I want/need

-I want to travel with the camera, that is improtant to me

Maybe I should buy a Shenhao. Or is there some camera out there, with the same movements (rear standard moving forward) a little more pricey would be no problem. I will not buy a new Ebony, thats for sure.

naturephoto1 · Mar 21, 2007

H Heinrich,

I agree with David and Roger and I have both the Lnhof Technikardan 45S and the Toho Shimo FC-45X. Both are great cameras for their purposes. The Technikardan has greater movement capability and camera of choice when closer to the vehicle. But, it weighs about 7 1/2 lbs. My modified Toho weighs only 2 lb 12 oz. It is quite compact, breaks into 2 pieces for travel, is quite compact, and amazingly rigid for its weight. The Toho has less movement capability than my Technikardan, but I use it for travel, long hikes, and backpacking.

Rich

jp80874 · Mar 21, 2007

Heinrich,

You might find this review of the Linhof Technikardan TK45S helpful.
http://www.butzi.net/reviews/linhoftk45s.htm
I bought my TK45S second hand as a first Large Format camera four years ago after reading this article.

I added the bag bellows, a Bosscreen to brighten the image and the macro/telephoto rail, all purchased on eBay. I used lenses from 90mm f4.5 Rodenstock to 450mm Nikkor M F9. It will take wider lenses to 45mm, but I only went to 90mm.

The article mentions the most common problem with this camera, folding the bellows for travel. The used camera I bought had a bad bellows and was priced accordingly. Camera Bellows in England built a new standard size bellows for me for about 40% of Linhof's price. They suggested that I remove the bellows to travel. Doing this only requires turning four levers. I carried both bellows, completely protected, in a hard plastic box that I bought in a kitchen supply store for about $4.00.

I have moved on to 8x10 and 7x17, but enjoyed the TK until I suffered from that fairly common disease, larger negative envy.

I hope this helps.

John Powers

sanking · Mar 21, 2007

heinrich voelkel said:
to all of you. to clarify things:

- I'm not a beginner, I shoot Largeformat for more than 10 years

- I like the Shenhao for its possibility to move the rear forward for wideangle use. I don't use a lot of movements, rise and fall and some swing, shift.

-price is of concern, but I will buy what works and delivers the results I want/need

-I want to travel with the camera, that is improtant to me

Maybe I should buy a Shenhao. Or is there some camera out there, with the same movements (rear standard moving forward) a little more pricey would be no problem. I will not buy a new Ebony, thats for sure.

The rear standard on the wood Canham 4X5/5X7 can be moved forward. This camera has lots of movements and bellows draw. It also is very light and folds into a very compact package. The wood Canham is not as intuitive as some of the traditional folding field cameras and takes some getting used to, but it is both cosmetically pleasing and functionally efficient. Seehttp://www.canhamcameras.com/Traditionalf.html

By the way, this camera is a modular design and can be fitted with a number of different size backs in addition to 4X5 and 5X7.

Sandy King

Roger Hicks · Mar 21, 2007

heinrich voelkel said:
Sorry Roger I don't get it. Do you say: you do only enlargements 3 times the neg. size as of "linhof-6x7"? and the quality up to 3times is equal to 4x5?

Is 6x9 usable with this setup or rather limited? what is the widest lens you use on this?

Regards Heinrich

Dear Heinrich,

All I meant was that a 3x enlargement from Linhof 6x7 is (or can be) indistinguishable from a contact print from a whole-plate negative.

The widest lens I have used on the 6x9 is 47mm, in a focusing panel, though obviously that has been replaced by the Alpas.

If you make (say) a 30x40cm/12x16 inch enlargement from 6x7cm and 4x5 inch, the 4x5 inch should be significantly tonally superior.

The reason I say 'Linhof 6x7' is that nominal 6x7 varies from 56x67 to 56x72mm, Linhof offering the latter.

Hope this clarifies matters.

Cheers,

R.

which LF camera offers more?

heinrich voelkel

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which LF camera offers more?

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