Which failed?

[soysos]

Time for the million dollar question. Which failed? The developer? Or the fixer? Good thing I wasn’t expecting anything out of these rolls.

 

[soysos]

After doing some testing with film scraps, it’s definitely the developer. Which I just mixed on Friday. So neither the phenidone solution, nor the hydroquinone, had any reaction. Lovely.

 

[awty]

It's best when you talk to yourself to do it in your head.

 

[soysos]

Probably, but I needed to get some frustrations out.

 

[albada]

Now we're wondering why the phenidone solution and hq failed. What kind of solution was it? How old? Then all of us can speculate. That's half the fun of a forum.

 

[koraks]

Which failed? The developer? Or the fixer?

Symptom: entirely blank film with no image. Cause: developer (dead or not used).
Symptom: film has images, but supposedly clear areas are cloudy white/pale yellow, possibly showing browning in strong light. Cause: fixer (dead or not used).

 

[soysos]

Now we're wondering why the phenidone solution and hq failed. What kind of solution was it? How old? Then all of us can speculate. That's half the fun of a forum.

It was a fresh mix of ID-68, made with a 10mg/ml solution of phenidone dissolved in water and powdered hq. Both of which are a few years old.

 

[Rudeofus]

If you still have that soup, you could try add some amount of strong alkali and check, whether it suddenly starts developing. I have seen dead developers, but not with the setup you describe. Very strange.

 

[soysos]

Ironically, I switched to ID-68 specifically to prevent this problem. I had been using acufine, but ruined several rolls of film because it inevitably oxidized between uses. Got similar results with the ID-68, that could be mixed fresh for each session. And since I was making my own paper developer anyway, since nobody makes a contrast control developer anymore, I already had what I needed.

 

[MattKing]

Symptom: entirely blank film with no image. Cause: developer (dead or not used).

One refinement: Symptom: entirely blank film with no image. Cause: developer (dead or not used) or fixer (used before developer).

 

[warden]

or fixer (used before developer).

I'm guilty of this blunder, one time. A roll of 6x7 chromes from a Colorado vacation. That stung!

 

[reddesert]

To save ruining exposed film rolls, you can do a clip test of a developer by taking a piece of film leader and dunking it in a small cup of the developer for a few minutes in daylight, then dropping it in a small cup of fixer. If it doesn't turn opaque and come out black once fixed, your developer is not good. You can also test the fixer by putting a small piece of film into the fixer first (no developer). It should clear in a few minutes.

 

[soysos]

I'm guilty of this blunder, one time. A roll of 6x7 chromes from a Colorado vacation. That stung!

I worked out a solution to that a long time ago. The cylinder I use for developer is a 1L Pyrex, while the other two are 500ml plastic.

 

[albada]

It was a fresh mix of ID-68, made with a 10mg/ml solution of phenidone dissolved in water and powdered hq. Both of which are a few years old.

If the 10mg/ml solution of phenidone in water isn't fresh, then I'll guess it went bad. Is the solution a strong yellow? The consensus around here is that for longevity, it's best to dissolve phenidone in propylene glycol.

 

[soysos]

If the 10mg/ml solution of phenidone in water isn't fresh, then I'll guess it went bad. Is the solution a strong yellow? The consensus around here is that for longevity, it's best to dissolve phenidone in propylene glycol.

More of a pink color. And yeah, that’s my thought as well. I’ve ordered more, and just to be safe I’m getting more hq too. The bottle it’s in has turned green, and if I’m paying for shipping anyway. I do have half a liter of PG on hand, so I’ll be using that this time. Question is, should I add the whole 10g of phenidone, or just do 5g to keep the concentration the same? Do I need to add anything else to it?

 

[albada]

In the past, I've used a 2% PG solution of phenidone -- 2 grams of phenidone in 100 ml volume. There's no need to add any other chemicals, but you'll probably need to add heat to make the phenidone dissolve in the PG reasonably quickly. I suggest starting small, of 3-4 grams at most, as it will take a long time to use that much phenidone, unless you're shooting multiple rolls per week.

Mark

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Just an aside here, but as good a place as any:

Why do people seem to have such problems measuring out a small amount of phenidone? I make PQ developers all the time from scratch, one-shot or one-session, and just weigh (or even spoon) out the appropriate small amount. I've never had consistency problems from whatever margin of error there is in my scales. Phenidone keeps quite well in dry form as long as it is in a well-sealed container.

It seems that aqueous phenidone solutions or even solutions in isopropyl alcohol that is not really pure tend to have shorter shelf lives and often go bad without much warning other than slight discoloration. Mixing in propylene glycol seems to work well, but then you need PG and have to take the time to mix up the stock solution.

And, a related question, just how precise do we have to be when measuring out phenidone anyway? In other words, if we miss by 10% or 15% even, how much affect will that have on developer activity?

Just wondering why people go to all the trouble to make phenidone solutions instead of just weighing it out.

Doremus

 

[koraks]

Just wondering why people go to all the trouble to make phenidone solutions instead of just weighing it out.

Because weighing out the tiny quantities I'd need for a single shot dose of Instant Mytol is (1) impossible to do with even 15% accuracy and (2) takes way more time than just dosing the right amount with a pipette.

Mixing in propylene glycol seems to work well, but then you need PG and have to take the time to mix up the stock solution.

Well, I can afford the €10 and 10 minutes.

 

[relistan]

And, a related question, just how precise do we have to be when measuring out phenidone anyway? In other words, if we miss by 10% or 15% even, how much affect will that have on developer activity?

This depends a lot on what you are doing with it. If you are only using 0.25g of phenidone and you are short by 0.0375g, that’s enough to develop a few films actually.

But the main issue is consistency. You want to get the same results each time. More consistent measurement is facilitated by dissolving it and using liquid measurements. Good job if you can manage that without. For the rest of us it’s a nice cheap safety belt.

 

[MattKing]

But the main issue is consistency. You want to get the same results each time.

Somehow, I think I know what side you tend toward, when it comes to the discussions in a recent thread about dividing packages of D-76

 

[gone]

Symptom: entirely blank film with no image.

I think I got this when I got things switched and tried to develop some film in fixer and fix it w/ the developer.

 

[relistan]

Somehow, I think I know what side you tend toward, when it comes to the discussions in a recent thread about dividing packages of D-76

LOL

 

[soysos]

Just an aside here, but as good a place as any:

Why do people seem to have such problems measuring out a small amount of phenidone? I make PQ developers all the time from scratch, one-shot or one-session, and just weigh (or even spoon) out the appropriate small amount. I've never had consistency problems from whatever margin of error there is in my scales. Phenidone keeps quite well in dry form as long as it is in a well-sealed container.

It seems that aqueous phenidone solutions or even solutions in isopropyl alcohol that is not really pure tend to have shorter shelf lives and often go bad without much warning other than slight discoloration. Mixing in propylene glycol seems to work well, but then you need PG and have to take the time to mix up the stock solution.

And, a related question, just how precise do we have to be when measuring out phenidone anyway? In other words, if we miss by 10% or 15% even, how much affect will that have on developer activity?

Just wondering why people go to all the trouble to make phenidone solutions instead of just weighing it out.

Doremus

Well, first off, at the moment I do not have the means to measure mg. I have a gram scale. Second, I already have pg. I purchased it unintentionally, instead of glycerin, and have yet to find a use for it.

 

[soysos]

This depends a lot on what you are doing with it. If you are only using 0.25g of phenidone and you are short by 0.0375g, that’s enough to develop a few films actually.

But the main issue is consistency. You want to get the same results each time. More consistent measurement is facilitated by dissolving it and using liquid measurements. Good job if you can manage that without. For the rest of us it’s a nice cheap safety belt.

And since I like to push my films for stronger contrast, the inconsistencies are compounded.

 

[Rudeofus]

Well, first off, at the moment I do not have the means to measure mg. I have a gram scale. Second, I already have pg. I purchased it unintentionally, instead of glycerin, and have yet to find a use for it.

PG = Propyleneglycol works very well for me to make Phenidone stock solutions. Glycerin is yet more syrupy, it may keep the Phenidone yet better, but it will also be more difficult to measure accurately. Even if you use a beaker to measure 10ml precisely, you will have to be creative to get all the 10ml into your developer.

Regarding precise scales: these used to be luxury items 20 years ago, and literature from that time and before go to great lengths how to avoid needing one. These times are over, and even the most radical analog photographer can and should use a modern digital precision scale, which can be ordered for less than the cost of a roll of color film.

However: even if that scale can accurately and reliably measure 25mg, it's still a pain to break down a batch of Phenidone to go from 22mg to 25mg. It involves messing around with tiny grains, and as you remove and put back the tray a few times, the displayed weight starts to move. BTDT. Tiny amounts of moisture will change the result, try putting 100mg of Potassium Iodide or Potassium Thiocyanate on a precision scale on a hot and humid day.

The best and most accurate way to measure precise amounts would be to create a well defined stock solution from e.g. 100g PG and 1g Phenidone, and to then measure smaller amounts by weight, not by volume. This is what Kodak seems to have done in some of their liquid concentrates.