Which color analyzer?

[aparat]

I would like to try color printing using the Fotospeed Mono CKRA4 chemistry. I have a Beseler 23cIII enlarger with a color head. Since the prices of enlarging equipment are so low these days, which color analyzer would you recommend? While searching the web, I came across two analyzers that people seem to like: the Jobo 5100 and the Colorstar 3000. I would like to learn the process and standardize on one film and one paper.

Thanks for your help!

 

[pentaxuser]

I have a Colorstar 3000. It's the 8 channel version but there are 100 channel versions. I can't speak for the Jobo so if I say that the Colorstar 3000 is probably the best colour analyser on the market then maybe someone who knows both will be able to give a fairer comparison.

If you can get a Colourstar 3000 within your budget then great but before I had one I had a Paterson one that you see on e-bay quite a lot. It can be bought for probably less than 25% of the price of the Colourstar and for the vast majority of prints can produce an equally good print. It requires that you produce a "perfect print" and then calibrate the settings on this whereas the Colourstar is calibrated in a much more sophisticated way by producing the correct grey, involving feedback to the machine to get the perfect neutral grey. It can also be used as a spot reading meter and can take and store readings from several parts of the negative.

Of course it takes longer to learn how to use properly. If time isn't a first consideration but money is then the Paterson will work very well most of the time and on the few prints that it interprets the colour balance wrongly it's a matter of using a "cut and try" method to alter the balance. You use a few more sheets of RA4 but you'd need to have a lot of difficult negs before the cost of the extra paper and chems equated to the cost of the Colourstar.

Finally you see a lot more of the Paterson analysers and others of that ilk on the U.K. e-bay than you do Colourstar 3000s.

PS in the time it hasn't taken me to write this, some of the APUGers with a lot of more experience of the Colourstar and of colour printing in general, will have replied.


Best of luck

pentaxuser

 

[aparat]

Thanks very much pentaxuser! I will look into the Colorstar 3000. I would have to sell some equipment I rarely use to raise the necessary funds, but I think it is worth it.

 

[Erik L]

Hi aparat, I have a Beseler pm2l color analyser you can have for 20 bucks shipped. I got it in a lot of darkroom equipment and have no idea how to use it. There are no instructions with it. I fiddled with it
a couple times and the needle moved in response to turning the dials but that is as far as I got
regards
Erik

 

[nickandre]

If I may, I don't think you need a color analyzer. I started color printing a year or so ago and I was convinced I needed one two after research. However, let me tell you how it works. First, you establish your base values to achieve 18% grey on a print (99.999999% of the work). After taking a reference value from the neg using the values used for that print, you measure another negative which contains a grey card, and it will guide you to a 18% grey value for that new print. If it's cheap, go for it but in general it's not going to save you much time at all. I was planning to get viewing filters and color analyzers but realized you don't need them at all. I just establish my base values for each new type of film and do a confirming strip if I'm unsure on other prints on that roll. For another roll of the same film I do a confirming strip. If I have a different type of film entirely, I start with a test strip, and use confirming strips until I pinpoint the values again. I keep track by scrawling all the base values on the baseboard of the enlarger (the previous owner did this too...)

See, despite all the hulabulooo with which digital photographers use to convince B+W filmers that color is way beyond the reach of any person in their own home, I built an entire color darkroom for $250. I use a steel tank in a waterbath at 101.4 degrees because of the loss during agitation, and room temp RA4 with kodak chemistry in trays. I haven't tried a safelight yet, except to say that you can't use an ordinary red one... I find that going to the developer replenishment system is easiest, skipping the one shot gallon kits. You can make up smaller quantities and top of containers with replenisher when you inevitably loose some developer during processing. For perspective the difference between a 1 gallon kit and a 10 gallon replenisher c41 developer on adorama is about $1. You'll need a $6 starter, but if you're shooting more than 4 rolls of film a month it's completely economical.

I use a "cheat sheet" which says "if print too blue, subtract yellow" or whatever. Don't hold me to that specific one--I only confuse myself more every time I think about it. Look it up somewhere. I duplicate slides too which doubly confuses me.

 

[jeroldharter]

I can highly recommend the Jobo. I have the 5000 not the 5100 which has a few extra features including a footswitch.

The Jobo has a lot of functionality besides a color analyzer. You can use it to determine B&W exposure and contrast also. I have used it as a densitometer for film testing. I also use it in integrated VC densitometer mode to adjust exposure when changing enlargement ratios, e.g. moving from 8x10 to 11x14.

I used to use it for Cibachrome and it worked really well. With some practice, I determined the filter pack for Velvia and then programmed the densitometer for zone V and could make very good prints in one pass. Sometimes I would have to tweak it when switching paper boxes but it was pretty easy.

My complaint about the 5000 is no footswitch and the ergonomics take some getting used to.

 

[aparat]

Thank you all for your very informative comments. I am going to give it more thought, but I am definitely going to try color printing.

 

[panastasia]

I thought I needed a color analyzer so I bought one and used it extensively, until I discovered color print viewing filters which require less fuss and the correct color balance is determined more accurately, and quickly - by eyeball instead of by a machine.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

The best color analyzer is on either side of your nose. Even with an electronic color analyzer you STILL have to evaluate and make corrections by eye. Consider, all the minilabs display the neg being printed (scanned and printed) as a positive on a monitor from which the operator makes corrections BY EYE by pushing buttons on the machine before the image is printed. The key here is "by eye". An electronic analyzer is practically useless if you don't have a pure neutral tone to analyze in your negative. Are you going to start every roll with a photo of a grey card? And even if you do this, you have to get a pure neutral grey "by eye" to program the analyzer for your film, paper and processing. Plus, all modern negative films and color printing papers are MUCH MUCH more forgiving of minor color balance changes than materials were 20 years ago when analyzers were popular.

 

[Pupfish]

Yeah, I'd agree that a color analyzer is no magic bullet. Thought it would be myself when I bought one along with a dichro head to start up my color darkroom a dozen years ago, and found it something of a letdown-- at first. While it can be a time and paper saver once you learn how to print without one, you probably complicate the learning curve unnecessarily by throwing an analyzer into the mix right away. What instructions I got for the original ColorStar proved so confusing I gave up on them. Nevertheless I did ultimately find my ColorStar to be very useful.

In addition to the other functions mentioned above, it's an on an enlarging meter/timer with an adjustable aperture probe for spot or incident). Wait- there's more: the timer is stepless and it compensates for reciprocity!

Once I'd finally gotten some good prints, I found it really good for zeroing out a known good gray and then used this when switching from one enlarger to another or after swapping out an blown enlarger bulb for a new one. Also saved a lot of paper when making a 5x7 and racking out to make larger prints of the same subject, timed with the probe.

Extremely valuable used as a densitometer for making unsharp silver masks with Pan Masking film, used both with Ilfochromes and RA4 materials.

(After all this time, I don't think I've ever used an actual Kodak gray card or a McBeth chart in any of my work).

 

[Thomas Wilson]

Color analyzers are awaste of time & paper!

Aparat, why don't you try the fast, easy, and cheap solution to your problem before you plop down $$ on a mindless robot. A set of Kodak Color Print Viewing Filters is all one needs to get "Picture" perfect color balance. Here are some quick easy steps to get you on your way:
1. Either use the correction numbers printed on the back of your box of paper (Kodak still does this ie. 65m 50y), or dial in 50m & 50y to start. Leave the cyan at zero. ALWAYS!!
2. Establish good density at those settings. Don't try to kill two birds with one stone and add or subtract time and filtration at the same time. This will come with experience.
3. Once your density is good, you can now adjust for color. Remember, you are printing a negative, so if your print is too yellow, you must ADD yellow to the pack in order to remove it from the print.
4. If you can get daylight balanced lights under which to view your test strips, you can avoid prints that appear good to you in your living room, but appear blue when viewed under daylight.
5. If you are tray processing or using drums, you may want to use a hair dryer to speed up the process a bit. The prints must be dry to be balanced.
If you shoot just one or two films, in time, you will know where your starting point should be. Kodak 160VC & Fuji 160C are off by 20 - 30 cc's each of yellow & magenta. Both paper and film color will vary by emulsion number. Try to buy large quantities of each so that you will be juggling as few emulsions as possible. Paper emulsions also vary by size.
Just a tip: Take you time. Color printing is as difficult as one chooses to make it. I find leaving the "Balanced" work-print on my coffee table for an hour or so before proceeding does wonders for my paper supply. I just glance at it while walking by or when doing what I'm doing now, for example. I will often see something in the color or density that I did not see while standing over the print with viewing filters in hand. In short, color analyzers certainly have a place in high-volume, automated labs, running thousands of feet of film and prints per day, but for the custom color lab or home darkroom, they waste much more than they save. But they look really cool.

 

[aparat]

Thomas, interesting perspective. Thanks! Could you recommend a book on RA-4 printing? Thanks!

 

[Ed Sukach]

Aparat, why don't you try the fast, easy, and cheap solution to your problem before you plop down $$ on a mindless robot...
... In short, color analyzers certainly have a place in high-volume, automated labs, running thousands of feet of film and prints per day, but for the custom color lab or home darkroom, they waste much more than they save. But they look really cool.

First, I respect your opinions.

Mine: I agree that a Color Analyzer is, indeed, a "mindless" robot... although I would have difficulty in characterizing one such as the ColorStar 3000 as "robotic". Certainly they are no more mindless than any camera... or perhaps a comparison to exposure meters would be more appropriate.
I have been on both sides of that coin ... and I will, from painful experience, say that, in my darkroom, FAR from an automated, high-volume operation, they are vital implements in avoiding wasteful expendatures of time and materials. They are probably what has kept me, arguably, on this side of sanity.
The BEST human perception is NO match for the stability and accuracy of an analyzer. My wife has extraordinary color perception, and I have seen many examples where she could not distinguish the difference, or direction, of a 5-7cc color shift either way.
An analyzer is a TOOL. One must learn to use all "tools". I would hesitate to use a rock to drive nails; to me that is equivalent to color printing without an analyzer - CAN be done ... but nowhere nearly as efficiently as with one.

Hmmm... "Fast, easy and cheap". Select any two.

 

[Thomas Wilson]

Aparat, I'm not familiar with any books on color printing per se, but I bought "Color in the 21st Century" by Helene Eckstein many years ago and found it invaluable to learning and understanding the fundamentals of color. The text is a little dated (1991), but very practical and informative.

I think the most difficult aspect of color printing is psychological. If you can produce good quality black & white prints with consistency and minimal consternation and fuss, then you should find your journey into color challenging, but well within your reach.

The key to all darkroom work, whether black & white or color, is repeatability. I am fortunate to have been mentored by two masters of the craft. One tought me how to be consistent, the other tought me how to balance for color. Neither would have taken the time if I didn't already know how to print very well.

If you stick with it through the learning curve, you may well find color to be easier to master than black & white. The paper and chemistry are certainly much less expensive. I've been printing color for over twenty years and can still manage to get stumped on a simple print. "Is that sky too green?" Blue + yellow = green? Print has too much yellow. Maybe...Or... magenta is opposite of green... Short answer, coffee break.

It's a true kick in the pants when you can show off a wonderful 8x12 color print that you took and printed your self, in your own real darkroom, and have a colleague ask, How many pixels does your camera have? and, What kind of ink did you use?

Leave the analyzer-crutch for someone who believes they need it.

 

[nworth]

There are many color analyzers available at low prices on the used market. If you can find one in good repair (often a real question), consider it. I use an old Beseler, and it does the job. I agree that a color analyzer is not a magic solution to getting the color balance right. Once calibrated correctly, the analyzer will get you in the right ballpark most of the time for both balance and exposure, however. After that, you have to use your eyes. For that reason, I don't think the more elaborate and expensive analyzers are worth the cost, except maybe in high production shops. There are some negatives (e.g. some of my shots taken in Lower Antelope Canyon, where there are few references and decided color casts and lighting anomalies) where a color analyzer is absolutely useless.

 

[AMBYSTOMA]

which color analyzer

Forgot color analyzers. The most foolproof way to bulletproof color balance is the photograph a grey card on every roll of film and then make a print of the scene including the grey card. Use a reflection densitmeter to read the color balance of the grey card; the desired end point is approximately 0.8/0.8/0.8 for the cyan, magenta and yellow channels. Adjust the color on each channel accordingly until you get the correct approximate 0.8 figure on the densitometer; the correct density is achieved separately by adjusting the f stop of the enlarging lens or the time of the exposure. If using several rolls if the emulsion number is the same each roll doesnt require a grey card shot as long as all the film is processed simultaneously. I use the same procedure for 4x5 and 8x10 film. I use a Devere 8x10 enlarge and a very old X-Rite 404 reflection densitometer.

 

[Ed Sukach]

Forgot color analyzers. The most foolproof way to bulletproof color balance is the photograph a grey card on every roll of film and then make a print of the scene including the grey card. Use a reflection densitmeter to read the color balance of the grey card;...

This is precisely what an analyzer does ... with the added advantages of internal calculation and memory... and the ability to be "on-line" with dichroic head settings and their correlation to results.

One is not limited to gray cards. I have channels set for "Fair Caucasian Skin" using various papers an processing, among others.

 

[rossawilson1]

I've never used one but I do use a Lee filters viewing set. You swap the filters in and out as you look at the print, combine different ones and read off the alterations printed on the cards.

They're really useful but ultimately the whole thing might make you go a little insane at first, but that's half the fun. I find looking at the highlights and trying to figure out what colour cast there is provides good results.

Remember to look at the final print in a natural light or at least in the light you'll be viewing the print.. you could end up correcting out a colour cast that isn't there otherwise!

Analyzers must help or they wouldn't make them.. whether you need them or not is another question. You may find you're a natural at picking out colour casts.

 

[Gene Crumly Photo]

There is a colorstar 3000 on ebay right now going for $100 , with buy it now $200 (jobo sold these for awhile, can still get parts from jobo, I know because I just did). Also the better Jobo ColorLine 5000 Color Analyzer (Exposure & Timer)from the same seller, $350 buy it now $450. If you can swing it buy the Colorline 5000. But the colorstar 3000 will work well. If you wait and watch ebay you can pick one up for under $100. It is important that the kit is complete, if not the replacement parts will cost you more than the analizer. give me an email if you want genecrumly@earthlink.net