Which Bronica do I have?

eyesage · Mar 30, 2015

I just received a classic Bronica today picked up from a certain online auction site, but my research so far is giving my contrary indications about whether I have an S2 or an S2a. It was advertised as an S2 and I bought it on that understanding though I'd be a little happier if it turned out to be an S2a. The serial number is in the 120000's and lacks the S2a extension which indicates this should be an S2.

But the winding knob which I understand is the only visible distinguishing feature between the two versions appears to be the S2a style.

Any theories about the contradictory identifiers or have I just misunderstood something?

Also, as was noted in the description, the back won't come off. Pressing in on the dark slide seems to cause something to begin releasing but only barely. I understand there are two styles of dark slide for these cameras. The one I have has a curved leading edge. I was wondering if it was possible the problem is that I have the wrong style and if so is there any way to tell? Alternatively is there any other common cause for this issue. I can get by without removing the back for now but eventually I hope to get a second back so I can switch film as the situation dictates.

nbagno · Mar 30, 2015

Later S2A's dropped the suffix from the serial numbers. Looking at my collectors guide, the S2A wind on knob is more conical than the S2. You're appears to me to be a S2.
S2A Type 1 S/n Range: 100,000 S2A to unknown. Can't really tell from the pictures.

Alan Gales · Mar 31, 2015

According to this and your serial # it looks like you have an S2 (scroll down to S2a). http://www.craigcamera.com/trivbronica.htm

The S2 has brass winding gears which were replaced with steel in the S2a. It is recommended by some to advance the film by turning the knob instead of folding out the handle and winding it so you use less torque and save the brass gears from stripping.

eyesage · Mar 31, 2015

nbagno said:
Looking at my collectors guide, the S2A wind on knob is more conical than the S2.

This is the main source of confusion as the serial number information all points to this being an S2, but the information I've been able to scrounge says the opposite of what you got from the collectors guide - that it's the S2 knob that is more conical and also that the S2 wind lever is bare aluminium rather than black like I have. For example there's a few examples with photos at www.dirapon.be/bronica.htm, about 4/5th of the way down the page. The same information can be gleaned from Camera-wiki. Either way though I think it's probably true that this is an S2.

frank · Mar 31, 2015

Would it be easier to change the serial number or the winding knob?

You could have a transitional model, but that would be more likely if the serial number was at the end of the S2 range.

Maybe the only way to know for certain is to open it up and look at the material of the winding gears. You may be lucky if this S2 had stripped brass winding gears that were replaced with the tougher steel gears, and an S2a winding knob was added to signify the change.

Gunfleet · Mar 31, 2015

I've often wondered about this stripped gear thing. I have an s2 and it feels to me as if you'd need to be very ham fisted (lacking mechanical sympathy?) to strip the wind on gear. I expect it might be as common as people think.

Gunfleet · Mar 31, 2015

'Not' is missing from that last sentence!

frank · Mar 31, 2015

Gunfleet said:
I've often wondered about this stripped gear thing. I have an s2 and it feels to me as if you'd need to be very ham fisted (lacking mechanical sympathy?) to strip the wind on gear. I expect it might be as common as people think.

Well it must have been a big enough concern for Bronica to come out with an improved model S2a. If it wasn't identified as an issue, why bother?

Gunfleet · Mar 31, 2015

As a manufacturer you'd need a reason for people to buy new ones surely - that's how we got to today. I'm not saying steel isn't better, rather that the s2 is better than people think and - in my experience- quite hard to break.

Argenticien · Mar 31, 2015

It looks S2 to me as well. As to the two different backs that require different dark slides: You may have trouble if you try to use the dark slide from one in the slot of the other, but either back should attach to either camera model. I think of the backs as 120-only vs. 120/220 (independent of camera model), not as S2 vs. S2a.

I have an S2 and agree it seems more robust than it gets credit for, but out of an abundance of caution I limit my use of the winding crank, because if I were to tear up the gears, there's really no fixing it anymore. I'm almost never using the S2 for rapid-fire pictures of race cars, hummingbirds, etc. so knob-winding is fine. I pull out the crank only to advance from loading to almost frame 1, and from frame 12 to the end of the spool, when there is not tremendous resistance on the gear-train anyway. It's cocking the shutter that seems like it could over-stress a gear somewhere.

--Dave

Alan Gales · Mar 31, 2015

Gunfleet said:
I've often wondered about this stripped gear thing. I have an s2 and it feels to me as if you'd need to be very ham fisted (lacking mechanical sympathy?) to strip the wind on gear. I expect it might be as common as people think.

These cameras were heavily used by wedding and/or portrait photographers. I'm not saying they abused their cameras but they put them through a lot more use than the average amateur. I have read that some of the S2's had their brass gears replaced with steel ones by repair shops after the S2a's came out. Pro use and amateur use are two different things. The problem is if you buy an S2 that has all ready seen a lot of use.

I don't know how strong the brass gears really are. A lot of information about the early Bronica cameras on the internet is a bit murky.

Gunfleet · Mar 31, 2015

Yes you're both right. I am pretty sure mine was owned by an amateur who gave it little use. And their heyday was a long time ago. Who would try to take pictures of something fast moving with a camera like that now? Consumer Nikons can manage 6 frames a second!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

eyesage · Mar 31, 2015

The S2 does seem to be the safest bet, I just don't like the idea of owning a camera without being entirely sure what it is. I'm with those who think there's too much being made of the difference with the S2a. This camera is probably about as old as I am and, issue with the back aside, seems to plugging along just fine. (It also had the well known infinity focus issue but that was a quick fix.)

Alan Gales · Mar 31, 2015

eyesage said:
The S2 does seem to be the safest bet, I just don't like the idea of owning a camera without being entirely sure what it is. I'm with those who think there's too much being made of the difference with the S2a. This camera is probably about as old as I am and, issue with the back aside, seems to plugging along just fine. (It also had the well known infinity focus issue but that was a quick fix.)

I bought a late model S2a once and it had the infinity focus issue. It's hard to believe that Bronica waited until the EC to solve this easy to fix problem. I have not priced S2 and S2a's in a while but the S2a's were selling for more than the S2's on Ebay and even more than the later EC's. Some prefer a non-battery dependent camera and some worried about the split mirror system of the EC. I had 3 EC's and never had a problem with the split mirror system. I did stay away from the ECTL because if the meter fails the camera becomes a doorstop.

eyesage · Apr 1, 2015

Alan Gales said:
I bought a late model S2a once and it had the infinity focus issue. It's hard to believe that Bronica waited until the EC to solve this easy to fix problem. I have not priced S2 and S2a's in a while but the S2a's were selling for more than the S2's on Ebay and even more than the later EC's. Some prefer a non-battery dependent camera and some worried about the split mirror system of the EC. I had 3 EC's and never had a problem with the split mirror system. I did stay away from the ECTL because if the meter fails the camera becomes a doorstop.

My guess is the infinity focus issue wasn't a priority back then since users would only notice it until the foam started to deteriorate which I assume takes quite a few years on average. As for non-battery dependent cameras, I have a strong preference for them too, not so much because of the batteries themselves but because I don't trust old circuit boards.

As for the issue with the back not coming off, I may have the mystery solved. It turns out the dark slide it came with is for the EC models and these are a little shorter.

Hopefully getting my hands on the correct S2 dark slide will solve the problem.

Alan Gales · Apr 1, 2015

eyesage said:
My guess is the infinity focus issue wasn't a priority back then since users would only notice it until the foam started to deteriorate which I assume takes quite a few years on average. .

From what I have read on the internet it was a problem when the cameras were new. At first Nikkor got blamed for producing unsharp lenses. Some even believed it was sabotage at the factory where they made the cameras. Now remember, this is what I read on the internet.

Whatever the reason, I just don't understand why it took Bronica so long to figure it out.

el wacho · Apr 1, 2015

The way to tell apart between the two is to wind some film on until the shutter is cocked. the brass-geared cameras ( S, S2, C etc ) wind until it cannot wind any more without the 'clickover' of the S2A. The S2A has a distinct ending to the winding and then 'click' - the brass geared cameras give no signal that you've hit the end. Yes, İ own both

trondareo · Apr 2, 2015

El wacho, I have a 1968 s2 and it certainly makes a loud click over sound and resistance as the shutter is cocked. Or are you refering to something else?

eyesage · Apr 2, 2015

el wacho said:
The way to tell apart between the two is to wind some film on until the shutter is cocked. the brass-geared cameras ( S, S2, C etc ) wind until it cannot wind any more without the 'clickover' of the S2A. The S2A has a distinct ending to the winding and then 'click' - the brass geared cameras give no signal that you've hit the end. Yes, İ own both

It was my understanding that all of these models do this. My camera certainly does.

This might not be a bad time to mention, just in case, that I'm in the market for an S2/S2a dark slide in case anyone has a spare. (The version with the curved end for magazines with the 120/220 switch.)

Trond · Apr 3, 2015

Judging by the winding knob, you do have an S2A. I have four S2As and they all have a winding knob similar to the one on yours. I found photos of the S2 knob in the very helpful book "Bronica. The early history and definitive collector's guide" by Tony Hilton, and it's shape is much more conical, in addition to other details that differs.

I read somewhere, I can't remember where unfortunately, that S2A's sold in Japan, did not have the have S2A designation engraved on them.

Trond

Argenticien · Apr 3, 2015

eyesage said:
This might not be a bad time to mention, just in case, that I'm in the market for an S2/S2a dark slide in case anyone has a spare. (The version with the curved end for magazines with the 120/220 switch.)

You'd think that the ratio of backs to slides in the world should be about 1:1, so not many loose slides should be floating around. I wonder if it's time for someone with the right equipment to 3D-print a batch of dark slides (from dimensions measured/scanned off a good original one), if there were enough interest from places like this and the flickr group. I know nothing about such processes so could not guess whether the slides could be printed with sufficiently exact dimensions as to be light-tight. If anyone does this, make 'em black! I always thought the shiny reflective metal ones were silly, although I know it shouldn't matter anyway if they're working properly; there'd be no light rays to bounce around in there.
--Dave

frank · Apr 3, 2015

I'm in need of a Bronica S2a darkslide too!

eyesage · Apr 4, 2015

Trond said:
Judging by the winding knob, you do have an S2A...

Well, this is the thing - the knob says S2a, the serial number says S2. The sources I found say that there's a particular serial number somewhere in the 150000's after which S2a's didn't carry the designation in the serial number but as mine is in the 120000's this implies it's an S2. That's according to the online sources I found anyway, but if you heard something different that could be interesting if you remember the source. Assuming what I found is correct then what Frank said earlier makes the most sense, it's much more plausible to think that someone replaced the knob with one from a different model (this was done with the darkslide after all) than that someone altered the serial number.

Argenticien said:
I wonder if it's time for someone with the right equipment to 3D-print a batch of dark slides...[/I]

The 3D printed stuff I've seen seems a bit rough to work as a dark slide but I suppose this is improving all the time. I was thinking of seeing what could be done with a sheet of polystyrene and a good hobby knife but in the case of the S2 I'm not sure anything shy of a good stiff piece of stainless would have the strength needed to release the back. It might work for other kinds of cameras though.

In my case I did manage to come up with a workable, if somewhat inelegant solution. By unwrapping the sheet metal that held the wire handle and flattening it out I got that little bit extra length I needed and the back comes off just fine.

Trond · Apr 6, 2015

I still think you have a S2A. According to Tony Hiltons book S2A serial numbers go from CB 100 000 to unknown. The book also has an image of a S2A body with serial number CB 118178 without the S2A suffix, just like your camera.

Trond

el wacho · Apr 6, 2015

trondareo said:
El wacho, I have a 1968 s2 and it certainly makes a loud click over sound and resistance as the shutter is cocked. Or are you refering to something else?

does your 68 S2 have the S2a style knob or the older 'S' style winder/focus gear type winder ?

the loud click over is usually a good indicator of the newer S2A type gear.
the non S2A gear has a quiet gear/ratchet sound that winds until the next frame is wound and , without warning nor change, you come to a stop ( or strip the brass gears ! ). i'm pretty sure there are only two types of gearings, from the S to the S2A.

an interesting side note, i saw an old 70's ad of a technician in the US that was adding the mirror lockup feature to the newer S2A. i have never seen one of these ( except for the photo in the ad ) and would love to see(buy) one.

Which Bronica do I have?

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