Which begginers LF camera?

roswell · Dec 1, 2007

Hello! I'm looking to get into large format photography, and I need advice. What should I be looking to get?

I have plenty of experience of using 35mm and medium format, and I have a little darkroom setup at home already, so processing and printing should be ok. My enlarger won't do bigger than 6x7cm, but I reckon contact prints will keep me happy for now, and I can look at upgrading the enlarger sometime in the future if I want bigger prints. So it's just the camera and camera accessories that I need.

I don't want to spend a fortune on this - I don't have a fortune to spend, right now, and I'd also like to give it a go without having made a huge investment, so I need to get something second hand. Budget is ideally about £200 for camera and lens (cheaper is better). I can pick up some dark slides and a 4x5 tank on ebay, I'm sure. A changing bag would be useful, but probably not an essential thing. What am I forgetting here?

I will be taking the camera out for expeditions, but by bicycle, so I don't think weight will be *too* much of an issue, because the bicycle can do most of the carrying. But portable would be good.

I've been looking about on ebay, and I've been thinking about this Bulldog kit (although I can't find much about it online). What I'm hoping you people can do is tell me what I should be looking out for, and what you think of the Bulldog. And if there are any sources for (cheap) old large format cameras that I've not discovered. (I'm based in the UK.)

Thank you!

John Kasaian · Dec 1, 2007

An old press camera like a Speed or Crown Graphic would be fun, mobile and ecomonical. Not a lot of movements (hardly any) but they are handholdable and press lenses can be had cheaply. Just make sure the bellows are good.

For a monorail design with lots of movements, look for a Calumet 400 series.

If you want a woody you might find an Agfa Ansco Universal or Burk and James in your budget. Whats cool about these is that they'll accept 5x7 backs, in case 4x5 contacts start to seem small.

Ole · Dec 1, 2007

Since you're on this side of the Atlantic you could try looking for an old Linhof Color [sic]. They tend to be remarkably cheap, and have sufficient movements to confuse most users. They are also sturdy, light, and surprisingly easy to transport. I used to carry mine in a small Lowepro S&F Rover Light, along with five or six lenses, ten holders, dark cloth, film, extra film, changing bag, loupe and spotmeter...

One of the best places to find these is on German ebay.

Another possibility is an MPP, the British equivalent of the Speed Graphic. Movement-wise I believe they are about the same as the Bulldog, with some front movements and a fixed rear.

Pete H · Dec 1, 2007

The Bulldog kit is about £150 without a lens. I think you'll be struggling to find any reasonable lenses and stay within budget. I would be more inclined to call somewhere like MXV ( Dead Link Removed ) and see if they'll do you a deal on a 5x4 with a lens around 150mm on a lens board. I have found their descriptions to be honest.

Good luck anyway!

JBrunner · Dec 1, 2007

When I read the title to your post, I immediately began to think in terms of entry 4x5's, but after reading it, I am going to recommend something different.

Get a 5x7.

It's got an endearing aspect ratio, the camera is still reasonably sized, and you can find tailboard version for a song, as 5x7 isn't nearly so popular as 4x5. The real benefit is that if you intend to contact print, as you say, that extra 15 square inches does some really nice things. It isn't any harder to handle, expose or process than 4x5.

If I had it as a do-over, thats what I'd do.

Erik Hartmann · Dec 1, 2007

Just like JBrunner.... start with a 5x7 (or 13x18cm)....
I startet with a 4x5 older Camumet 400 witch I still use...
Then I got a ICA 13x18 and that was it.... Now a 'new' Plaubel Peco Universal 13x18 is on its way from Germany .... 4x5 is a little too small )
Look a ebay and you will find a fairly cheap 13x18 there.......

niels-erik

Ria · Dec 1, 2007

I believe I would go for a 4x5 Speed or Crown Graphic. (My first "store-bought" 4x5.) As noted above they are fairly reasonable in price and although they only limited front movements, (shift, tilt, rise/fall), and no rear movements, they are certainly adequate for most situations. They also have the advantage of being built like the proverbial tank.
As for 5x7: I also shoot 5x7, really like the aspect ratio and in a contact print that extra 15 square inches is great. However, one's film choices are more limited with 5x7 and if you get an image that you decide you want to enlarge it's more problematic to print.
Of course, if we wanted to do it the easy way I guess we'd all be using digi point and shoots.
Ria

JBrunner · Dec 1, 2007

Ria said:
However, one's film choices are more limited with 5x7 and if you get an image that you decide you want to enlarge it's more problematic to print.
Of course, if we wanted to do it the easy way I guess we'd all be using digi point and shoots.
Ria

If you decide to get a large format enlarger, a 5x7 will be harder to find, but likely less expensive. The printing is a little more problematic, but the prints are sharper for a given enlargement. Times have changed in regard to stock. There are a few stocks you cant get for 5x7, but many stocks are available, Ilford, Efke, Foma, ADOX, and Bergger, all have offerings, including an infrared stock. You can also get Kodak TriX in 5x7. The film availability myth about 5x7 is another thing that (happily) keeps the price of the cameras low.

Antje · Dec 2, 2007

Ole said:
Since you're on this side of the Atlantic you could try looking for an old Linhof Color [sic]. They tend to be remarkably cheap, and have sufficient movements to confuse most users.

Ole, what's your experience - what do they usually go for?

Thanks,

Antje

Ole · Dec 2, 2007

They seem to go for about €100 to 150 lately - a little more if there are lenses with them, and there will always be the odd one that goes for way more.

That should leave a little in your budget for holders and lenses...

dslater · Dec 2, 2007

Ole said:
Since you're on this side of the Atlantic you could try looking for an old Linhof Color [sic]. They tend to be remarkably cheap, and have sufficient movements to confuse most users. They are also sturdy, light, and surprisingly easy to transport. I used to carry mine in a small Lowepro S&F Rover Light, along with five or six lenses, ten holders, dark cloth, film, extra film, changing bag, loupe and spotmeter...

One of the best places to find these is on German ebay.

Another possibility is an MPP, the British equivalent of the Speed Graphic. Movement-wise I believe they are about the same as the Bulldog, with some front movements and a fixed rear.

I'll second the Linhof Color - I bought mine on this side of the pond as a complete outfit - got the camera, a Linhof tripod, a couple of holders, and a Rodenstock 135mm f/5.6 Sironar-S lens all in mint condition for $400.00. With a little creative packing, I can fit the camera, 4 lenses, filters, loupe, meter, and dark cloth into my Domkey camera bag. Also, unlike many Technikas, I can use a 65mm lens on it with a recessed lens board and still have some movements.

Bob F. · Dec 2, 2007

Although 5x7 is a better bet if you are doing contacts, they are pretty rare in the UK - great idea if you can find one though. The MPP with standard lens may be available within, or close to, your budget but even they can go much higher. There are any number of older monorails such as the DeVere, Calumet and Linhof Kardan (Color) available but with a lens, they will be pushing your budget too. Unfortunately, Speed Graphics and similar tend to go well over your budget - but you can get lucky...

As you will be biking it around, you might consider an MPP or Speed if you can find one over a monorail design as it will be more easily packable and possibly more robust although you will loose a lot of the movements. If movements are likely to be important, then a monorail it will have to be. At your price range, I am excluding field cameras as finding one even without a lens for under 200 quid in usable condition is pretty hopeless over here.

Good luck, Bob.

Ole · Dec 2, 2007

With the right mixture of patience, tenacity and luck it is possible to put together a LF outfit for...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) was shot with an Anniversary Speed Graphic ($56) and a Zeiss Doppel-Amatar barrel lens (€29). So about £60 altogether.

I have cheaper lenses too, but I think the $56 SG is about as low as possible? There is of course no upper limit, but my other favorite 4x5" combination comes pretty close (Carbon Infinity with 150mm Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar, cost so much I've managed to forget it).

Peter Black · Dec 2, 2007

Roswell, if you are anywhere near Manchester, then just go grab the ebay item below! It may not be the perfect tool for landscape, and I'm not entirely sure about that lens, but it's certainly going to get you started bigtime in LF. Oh, and if you don't like it you can almost certainly sell it on for at least the same money.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/De-Vere-7-x-5...goryZ627QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

EDIT: a quick google suggests that the lens is only good for 6x9 cm, so no good for this camera. Try beating him down for no lens?

Soeren · Dec 3, 2007

I took the plunge about a month ago and went directly for a 5X7" Sinar. I got it with a 4X5" reducing back and filmholders for that format. Like many others I feel that 4X5 is too small and I don't use the 4X5 reducing back.
Since Im in almost the same situation as you I figured 5X7(or rather 13X18cm) was the better format and experienced that for me it really is so.
I can black out a bathroom for filmloading (easy), unloading and development (piece of cake) and I can take a 35mm enlarger as lightsource for contacts (easy too) so I'm now a LF shooter.
The 5X7 Sinar Norma with a 150mm lens, WA bellows, 30cm rail and one 13X18 filmholder weight 5055g so its not exactly light But compared to the amount of gear I carry when shooting MF or 35mm its not an issue at all.
Camera with two lenses, four holders, rail and spot meter and a couple of filters will actually just fit in a Lowe Pro Rower AW and I can carry it for some hours. I must say though that the Rower is not the best backpack and Im looking for another, a Tamrac perhaps.
If I where you I'd go for that Devere kit.
Kind regards
Søren

Bob F. · Dec 3, 2007

I have to say that I would be very wary of that Devere... The seller "knows nothing about this stuff" yet somehow knows that 7x5 is a similar size to half-plate... The camera has a MF lens on it (which I suppose could cover 4x5 at a pinch, but 7x5???). There are no shots of the rear of the camera and his description of a 7" square opening suggests a 5x4 to me, not a 7x5. Does it take film or plates? Probably film, but without seeing the back...

Now, if you live nearby, know what you are looking for, discover that the camera IS a 7x5 and can beat him down to 100 quid for the camera alone it would be well worth it, but on the other hand MXV have a 5x4 Linhof Kardan for 100 beer tokens on their list (no idea if they still have it though). Or as others have said, take your time and bargains do pop up occasionally on the auction site. That camera may be one, but you will need to be able to check it out first.

Good luck, Bob.

Soeren · Dec 3, 2007

Bob F. said:
I have to say that I would be very wary of that Devere... The seller "knows nothing about this stuff" yet somehow knows that 7x5 is a similar size to half-plate... The camera has a MF lens on it (which I suppose could cover 4x5 at a pinch, but 7x5???). There are no shots of the rear of the camera and his description of a 7" square opening suggests a 5x4 to me, not a 7x5. Does it take film or plates? Probably film, but without seeing the back...

Now, if you live nearby, know what you are looking for, discover that the camera IS a 7x5 and can beat him down to 100 quid for the camera alone it would be well worth it, but on the other hand MXV have a 5x4 Linhof Kardan for 100 beer tokens on their list (no idea if they still have it though). Or as others have said, take your time and bargains do pop up occasionally on the auction site. That camera may be one, but you will need to be able to check it out first.

Good luck, Bob.

Taking a closer look at it I must agree.

steve simmons · Dec 3, 2007

Here are my thoughts.

Your bellows needs to be at least 25% longer then the longest lens you want to use.

Take your favorite 35mm lenses and multiply their focal lengths by 3 to get an approximate 4x5 equivilent.

The only really necessary movements are swing and tilt on the front and rear. With these movements you can mimic rise and fall and shft.

If you want to use a lens shorter than 90mm (28 on a 35) you would be better off with a camera that has a bag or wide angle bellows.

Here are some books I recommend.

Jim Stone's User's Guide to the View Camera.
Jack Dykinga's Large Format Nature Photography
my book Using the View Camera.

Try your local library.

When selecting a camera body it is features, features, featrures. Don't worry about brand names at this point.

In the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site there are several articles that will be helpful to you.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

Antje · Dec 3, 2007

Ole said:
They seem to go for about 100 to 150 lately - a little more if there are lenses with them, and there will always be the odd one that goes for way more.

That should leave a little in your budget for holders and lenses...

Don't want to hijack the OPs thread, but I just need someone to talk to now... OK, well, I didn't mean to buy one. Really, I didn't. But it looked so sad... Found a Color at a store in Nürnberg today and had to take it home. 125 Euros, and it looks and feels nice and smooth. And rock solid. It's a little scuffed and smells like it needs some fresh air - I can provide that, certainly! Now all I need is a lens.
Oh, and I've been to a certain notorious store in Nürnberg before I found my new toy, and they had a Color for insane 500 Euros. Without lens or holders, nothing. I wonder what they're smoking, really.

Btw: It's your fault, Ole, the macro solution thread pushed me over the edge! I'll blame it on you if my husband chides me.

Antje

Ole · Dec 3, 2007

Antje said:
... OK, well, I didn't mean to buy one. Really, I didn't. But it looked so sad...

I know that feeling. That's why I have 3 1/2 Gandolfis, and four Voigtländer plate cameras, and a cabinet full of lenses...

Erik Hartmann · Dec 3, 2007

Antje....You are a lucky girl.... do not blame Ole.... Who in the world could let that little lonely camera stand in that shop....It need someone to take care of it.....And that was you.....
And now it need some environment, where it can have a good live.......
Gosse Glückwünschen von mir....

niels-erik

removed account4 · Dec 3, 2007

i would also suggest a speed graphic ( curtain shutter =barrel lenses = cheep + fun )
but i also think a 5x7 ( or you can get film in the euro equiv / cm ) would be a great choice too.
a lot of 4x5 lenses cover 5x7 and you have a beautiful image ( most everything looks nice
when it is shot on a 5x7 negative : ) ) and enlargers for just a song, no dance needed.

good luck!
john

Peter Black · Dec 3, 2007

There is an MPP mark VI complete with lens and 3 DDS for the grand sum of £129 at the link below. There is no statement of condition, but it must be worth a phonecall?

http://www.collectablecameras.com/cameralist.htm

Colin Corneau · Dec 3, 2007

It's been said here before, but I recommend a good Crown or Speed Graphic.

I'm in a much similar position as you are, being a newbie. I have a Crown, with a flawless Schneider 135mm lens on it. This is the setup I used when travelling in China recently -- strong, quick to set up, and could take a few knocks.

I've since got a Shen Hao 4x5 and love it. I can only add that a 4x5 format gives you options, more so than 5x7 - consider drum scanning and working with the file to output, also.

Bandicoot · Dec 3, 2007

Antje said:
Don't want to hijack the OPs thread, but I just need someone to talk to now... OK, well, I didn't mean to buy one. Really, I didn't. But it looked so sad... Found a Color at a store in Nürnberg today and had to take it home.

Yay! My grandmother used to have a saying for things like this that has become family legend: "It'd be a [and at this point we knew what was coming and would join in] crime to leave it in the shop" she'd say. I think your Color sounds like a definite case - and glad to hear that avoided committing the crime!

Peter

Which begginers LF camera?

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