Where's the lith look?

I've been working on some lith prints from HIE negatives. The first negative was a fairly dense one. I printed it on Maco Multibrom and developed in 1A:1B:16H2O:1old brown Maco Superlith chemistry (this has worked fine for me before). It was in the developer for 15 minutes. It looks like a regular print, not "lithy" at all. Less time in the developer and I wasn't getting the blacks I wanted.
I moved on to my second neg, another HIE, different roll of film, not as dense, same tray of developer. It was in the developer for 7 minutes and has a nice "lithy" look, and blacks where I want them.
I had thought that a longer developing time gave more lith effect (as well as potentially blocking up all the shadows if it's in too long.)
What do I do with the one that doesn't look lithy? Are some negatives just not going to work? If I expose for less time won't I lose highlight details? More time - plug up my highlights?
Any advice much appreciated.

sly said:

I've been working on some lith prints from HIE negatives. The first negative was a fairly dense one. I printed it on Maco Multibrom and developed in 1A:1B:16H2O:1old brown Maco Superlith chemistry (this has worked fine for me before). It was in the developer for 15 minutes. It looks like a regular print, not "lithy" at all. Less time in the developer and I wasn't getting the blacks I wanted.
I moved on to my second neg, another HIE, different roll of film, not as dense, same tray of developer. It was in the developer for 7 minutes and has a nice "lithy" look, and blacks where I want them.
I had thought that a longer developing time gave more lith effect (as well as potentially blocking up all the shadows if it's in too long.)
What do I do with the one that doesn't look lithy? Are some negatives just not going to work? If I expose for less time won't I lose highlight details? More time - plug up my highlights?
Any advice much appreciated.

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You have a number of options here sly.
HIE is great with lith dev in the printing stage. I have never found a neg that won't lith print - the process is so hugely variable that it can be adjusted for any neg (IMHO).

Firstly, it mught have been worth going back to the first neg after the second had worked well, just in case the dev had still been a bit too fresh.

Secondly, I would suggest increasing the dilution. It will increase the dev time but you can shorten it by bumping up the temperature to around 28-30C. 1A+8 with 1B+8 is quite strong in my book and you should see a big change if you double that - or at least 1A+12 with 1B+12, but generally I find that if in doubt, more water rather than less is better.

Next, review your exposure. It may be that your exposure was far from optimum. Make a quick test strip in normal paper dev. You don't need to find space for an extra dish, a graduate will do for that thin strip. Then add 2 and 3 stops for your first 2 lith prints. Mark them on the back and put them through back to back flipping frquently all the way through. This will give you a good guide as to which way to go for the effect you want. You can make a bigger difference between them if you want, but a stop is a fair guide.

If still not lithy enough, add more water, add a little 10% Potasium bromide and repeat. Both these will extend your dev time though, so be prepared for that!

The next step would be to use another, more lithy, paper. Papers vary quite a lot, (sometimes a big lot!) in the lith effect they give.

Also don't throw away the print you did but don't like. Hypo-clear it and wash well then bleach in a sepia kit bleach, wash and redev in dilute lith with old brown. Some papers work wonders with this, some less well. Snatch from the lith when you like it and take to stop and fix - where it will lighten further. If you dev too long you will loose the effect.
Tim

Thank you Tim, for your speedy reply. I just picked up some sepia toner recently but haven't used it yet. I'll give the bleach and redevelop a try.
Is there any other place I could have gotten a reply from THE expert so quickly? Long live APUG!

Hey Sly, something that has sped up the process for me is to save ALL the old developer from a good session, and use it about 25/75 with the new batch. Usually needs a little sulfite, but it has plenty of bromide. I don't know what Tim would say about that, I know his book recommends starting at much less.

Rich Ullsmith said:

Hey Sly, something that has sped up the process for me is to save ALL the old developer from a good session, and use it about 25/75 with the new batch. Usually needs a little sulfite, but it has plenty of bromide. I don't know what Tim would say about that, I know his book recommends starting at much less.

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I think that sounds OK Rich. Meaning 1/4 vol is old brown. It does depend on the effect you want though and on how old and brown your old brown is! i.e. how much you worked the solution during the previous session.
I usually start with a bit less OB than that, but it isn't a precise science as there are too many variables - including the papers, which vary a lot. You are right of course, OB is quite high in bromide. If you use smaller quanties of OB you don't usually need to add more sulphite, but the older and browner the mix gets through use, the lower the sulphite becomes.
Tim