Where'd my tone go?

I was selenium toning some 11x14 Warmtone fibre a couple of weeks ago - again replenshed KSRT - which kicked in a nice reddish tone around 7+ minutes at the low 70's F. 'Nice' thinks I, and into the hypo clear and wash, then air dry about 24 hours.

Result: a warm, but neutral print. Most of the colour was gone.

I tend to use selenium to increase density in fine shadows, and use a weaker solution for longer. This was the first time I went all out for a colour change. My guess is that the solution is too strong or I was too impatient when the colour changed.

What was your temp.? Maybe you have a fever while toning?

I never tone ferverishly.

Ansel Adams mentioned this problem in, I believe, "The Print." So your not alone in your experience. As for dry mounting: 3 minutes at around 185F with Buffermount is very typical, though I don't like to mount prints. If I had to though I would highly reccomend either Buffermount tissue, or the new "Artcare Restore" from Nieslson-Bainbridge, an acid free, heat activated, heat REVERSABLE, mounting board. Somewhat finicky, moderate tack, but good stuff for keeping a nice print flat without permanently mounting it.

I could happen if the print is not washed properly between fix and toner bath.

I go from fixer to 3-10 minute wash then to permawash for 3-10 minutes then wash for 5 minutes, then toner.

The only problems I've heard about going from fix to tone to quickly is staining, not lack of tone after drymounting. Remember I said the print looks toned perfectly, while toning, while washing (5min wash, 3-10 perma, 1 hour archival washer) and after drying.

The tone disappeared after drymounting.


Michael

Just an update on this.

Simon from Ilford sent me 100 sheets of replacement paper. (very kind) So I tried the same negative as the first time. I printed LPD (new bottle every session)

The new paper seemed to loose slight bit of toning, not much when dry mounted. 195 at 2 min. (I decreased the time)

The old bad paper seemed to lose more toning, than the new.

The Bergger didn't lose any. (although I prefer the color of ILMGWT)

The next week I switched to Ilford Warmtone developer.

New Ilford paper didn't lose any tone at all when dry mounted.

So I'm still not certain what the problem was.

I have lowered the time in the press by a bit less than a minute. I have switched to Ilford Warmtone developer which is a nice color, when toned.

When I get a chance I'll try the bad paper, with the Ilford Warmtone developer and see what happens there.

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.


Michael

Michael, why are you toning..Dmax ?.. LE.?. or..print color?..all 3?

Color.

Michael

Michael,

Just a few thoughts. Please remeber that I am only trying to be helpful.

KRST
I have not previously read of anyone using replenishment for KRST. Certainly, I am not saying that it is a poor practice. I am not particularly experienced in replenishment of any chemicaland have no particular fund of knowledge from which to draw. I have read that with replenishment for film developing that some labs will run a replenishment system for along period of time and then dump their chemicals and make a new batch. It is possible, I believe, that dumping your KRST and starting anew might be a good idea.

Dry Mounting
Once again I am no expert. I am well aware that some folks including A. Adams recommend a prolonged amount of time in the mounting press. I beleive that going back and reading the instructions supplied with your mounting tissue could be worthwhile. It maybe that you are already doing what is advised by the supplier of the tissue. Some of the tissue marketed today use a temperature of 170-175ºF. This is the range I use. My press is more than 30 years old. I do not know whether its' thermostat is still accurate. I had been using a pressing time of 1-1/2 minutes and had experienced my print corners lifting from the board. I minimzed my temperature and cut back on the time to 20 seconds--sometimes too little, 25 seconds seemed to do the trick but being a right-wing conservative I have settled on 30 seconds. This 30 seconds at 175ºf has proven to be troublefree. My normal practice is to pre-heat my press for 1/2 hour with 1 4ply board on the press pad and another 2 that will be above the print. Some tissues create their bond while melting while others create their bond while cooling. So, if the loss of tone is heat related then using a tissue that works at a 20ºF lower temperature for only 1/4 as long may be very helpful.

Salvage

You have an investment in time and money in the unsatisfactory prints. I do not know if you are flush ounting or mounting to a board that is larger than the print. Here are my thoughts about salvage and gaining a bit of knowlege.

Set your press to 300ºF. Allow it to thoughly pre-heat. Put a print in it for 3 minutes and see if the corners are lifting. I would imagine this to be more than enough time. If not either increase your time or the press temperature.
Wear gloves so that you do not scorch your fingers. Grab ahold of 1 lifted corner and pull the print from the matt board. It should easily be able to be stripped from the board. Their will be a yellow coloration left on the matt board from the tissue. Their will be a bit of evenly covered residue on the back of the print.
Rewet the print,tone it again, wash and dry it.

Flush mounting
If the print is to be flush mounted and if the oringinal board does not have any thing adhered to it surface re-use it. If it appears to have any grit that cannot be removed then use a new board. Then tack some new tissue to print and trim it with a matt knife. Then mount the print to the board.minimizing both the time and temperature of mounting to what is only a bit more than what is required to get a properly mounted print.

Mounting to an oversized board.
If the original board is reusable then you have two options.
1). If you are reluctant to trim off any ot the print, then using a straight edge and holding a matt knife..sharp blade please..at a 45º angle trim the tissue to size. This will make the tissue very slightly smaller than the print. Then very carefully position the print on its ORIGINAL board, tack and mount it.

2). Set the board aside for use with a future print that will fully cover the area now having the yellowish color to where the print had been. Good quality 20x24 boards are expensive and you are concerned here with an even larger and more expensive board.
Trim the print and tissue and mount it to the new board.

I, of course, do not know the cause of the toning failure. I have an opinion. My opinion is that it was caused by the toner as being the most likely with the time and temperature of mounting as being the second most suspicious problem..perhaps these two worked together in concert to cause the problem.
I view the paper as the least likely source of the problem. What do I base my opinion on? Just a wild ass guess.

If you choose to do thiss it would be most helpful to report to the group as to whether the changes I suggested have allowed you to get proper toning on the ORIGINAL print that has been remounted. If you are able to retone and mount the the ORIGINAL print it would be evidence satisfactory to me that the paper was NOT the cause of the problem.

If all the foregoing are tried and of no avail to you then I would advise you to tone yuorself internally with a grape based fermentation from California.

Thanks for the advice.

As I mentioned, when toning I tone a number of the same print and drymount perhaps only one. Since the toning is satisfactory on all prints before dry mounting, one would assume the problem is not with the toning. Since in my limited knowledge, the toning is a chemical process that has changed the chemical composition of the paper to silver selenide (??). One would think that if the paper is toned well and consistant, that the toner could not be the culprut as the unmounted prints look fine. My proceedure of adding more KRST when the prints seem slower to change color has been ongoing for years. Maybe once a year I dump it all and start fresh. I'm careful not to let Permawash get into the selenium because I wash between that step and the selenium.

With 20x24 prints, I've often have to give two bites @195 to get it mounted perfectly. It does appear that time seems to have an effect. That being said 2 minutes, done twice has not caused a print to lose the tone previously to this current batch of paper.

The one variable that I had not really considered before this happened was the developer. I dump a fresh bottle in the tray every session so it's not depleted developer. LPD 1:6

As I mentioned with the Ilford Warmtone developer that I just started using I didn't have a problem once toned and drymounted. But then a month ago I didn't have a problem with LPD either.

I'm still debating the problem but as of the last batch with new paper, new developer, and less time in the press, it was fine.


Michael

Well going thru the process I advised would allow you to pin it down much more completely. Make a very small batch of fresh toner and tone one of the problem prints and subject it to your normal toning and mounting procedures.
See what happens. Retone one of the problem prints in your original toner and put it into the press at 170ºF for 30 seconds. See what happens.

What time and temperature is recommended by the tissue maker?

If one would not suspect the toner due to it being a chemical process, then why would one suspect the developer?

195 for 1 1/2 to 2 minutes.

The problem with 30 seconds for a 20x24 is that it doesn't adhere fully.

As I and others have pointed, out in the past I've left it in the press for 4-5 minutes before with no problem.

Good question about the chemical aspect.

One would not think that once a chemical has converted in the selenium, that heat would revert it back to something else.

Michael

I had a somewhat similar issue with dry mounting and toning. It was with Forte PWT. My problem was disappearing tone throughout or in localized areas of the print. I found that it was associated with the amount of humidity in the air at the time of dry mounting. I had the issue during the hot humid summer months here in NC. Although the prints were dry, there was still enough water in them to adversley affect the dry mounting. I resolved the problem by maintining humidity in the dry mount area, or at least keeping it from getting above 55% in the summer months. Relative humidity above 75% will cause the problem to return for me.
Regards,

My mentioning the tissue temperature has been emphasied with the thought of accomplishing a few different things as being a possibility.

I know form previous experience that 30 seconds at 175ºF is capable of working with the right tissue being used. So this saves for a single cycle 3/4 of the time..2 1/2 minutes, it reduces electricity.. it would help to aleviate any temperature/time problems from the combination of toning and paper.

Can I send you a couple of free sheets of 11x14 tissue for you to try? I am sorry that I am not a user of 20x24 tissue but a man has to know his limitation's to quote a Mayor from Carmel.

Is it possible that your temperature and time is right at the high edge of what will allow the paper to bond? Have you ever tried a lower temperature with that tissue? I know that some tissues are designed to work as high as 210ºF.

WHAT TEMPERATURE IS ADVISED BY THE TISSUE MAKER?..do not take this as other than emphasis..I am not yelling.

Here is my gut logic for suspecting the toner:
If one has a toner related problem, then I would first suspect the toner. If I was using HP5 film and I suddenly had a problem with extreme graininess then I would first suspect the HP5 film as long as the same development had been given.

Hi Blansky,
We met at APUG Toronto I think ?? (or was it an impersonator - or memory deficit?)

This is a really interesting thread. I missed it the first time around.
I haven't had time to more than scan the replies but you've had lots of good advice that I can see and drawn a few blanks as well. Such is life with toning!

Truth is that almost anything in the chain can affect the results of toning and many (not all) of the problems are caused back up the line somewhere. This may get overlooked.
I think the key is to keep every stage as consistent as possible. The more variables you have the less hope there is of pinning down where things have changed results.

With this in mind I personally wouldn't replenish toner solutions. It is just another unnecessary unknown. Keep as much as possible fresh and pristine and results will be more consistent.

The development stage can have an effect too. Especially with 20x24 prints. The dev at the end of a session is not what you started with. Neither is anything else in the process. I don't know (sorry if I missed it) if the problem prints came from the beginning or end of the session or were random?

I don't know about the paper in your case of course - I use Ilford paper a lot and my impression is that it is usually (sorry Simon - that should be always) the least variable link in the chain with Ilford and Kodak products (not all others from E europe and farther afield). Nothing is impossible but I would look at the process first.

Much has been said about heat and drying. Many papers change colour (toned or untoned ) on drying. Lith printers here will know this very well as it's largely a product of grain size. This is also determined by development. AA really didn't move too much in the fine or ultra fine paper grain arena as he liked cold tone prints and they do tone quite differently! Many also change on heating. Heat drying certainly affects toning for example.

Another point: Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as all the silver converting to silver selenide. Even with prolonged toning in KRST, a certain amount of silver is not converted. If it were, the print would be orange. The black silver masks this to a varying degree and so a range of colours results. (If in doubt see 'Chinese prints' in my Toning book). This doesn't give you an answer, just points out another variable!

I will be interested to here the next results with the new paper batch. Also I thought Ms Anne Thrope's suggestion worth pursuing.
I'll keep an eye open on this thread with interest
Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks for some of that information.

Michael

Claire Senft said:

My mentioning the tissue temperature has been emphasied with the thought of accomplishing a few different things as being a possibility.

I know form previous experience that 30 seconds at 175ºF is capable of working with the right tissue being used. So this saves for a single cycle 3/4 of the time..2 1/2 minutes, it reduces electricity.. it would help to aleviate any temperature/time problems from the combination of toning and paper.

Can I send you a couple of free sheets of 11x14 tissue for you to try? I am sorry that I am not a user of 20x24 tissue but a man has to know his limitation's to quote a Mayor from Carmel.

Is it possible that your temperature and time is right at the high edge of what will allow the paper to bond? Have you ever tried a lower temperature with that tissue? I know that some tissues are designed to work as high as 210ºF.

WHAT TEMPERATURE IS ADVISED BY THE TISSUE MAKER?..do not take this as other than emphasis..I am not yelling.

Here is my gut logic for suspecting the toner:
If one has a toner related problem, then I would first suspect the toner. If I was using HP5 film and I suddenly had a problem with extreme graininess then I would first suspect the HP5 film as long as the same development had been given.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice.


I use Beinfang/Seal Buffermount 24x 90 feet. This stuff apparently replaced the Seal Colormount.

The Seal Colormount, I believe was rated at 195 for 1 1/2 to 2 minutes.
I just checked the Bienfang/Seal Buffermount and it says 170 degress at 1 1/2 to 2 minutes so I will turn down the press.

BUT, as I've stated, the problem didn't occur until that one box of 50 20x24 sheet box of paper.

Previously I had been using the Bienfang/Seal at 195 for 1 1/2- 3 minutes.

My selenium procedures have never changed and the only difference is that occasionally I'd add more selenium to the solution if it got slow to change color. This I've been doing for years, and have never lost a tone to drymounting.

As I mentioned I have, with the new paper and new developer, not lost any tone when dry mounted at 195 degress.

The only variable is the paper. Also I've never had this problem with 16x20 or 11x14.




Michael

Well Michael, I hope that your problems disappear and never again raise their ugly head.

Thanks for all your suggestions.


Michael

blansky said:

I've never had this problem with 16x20 or 11x14.
Michael

Click to expand...

Just musing here - could the problem be a localized problem which varies with the position of the print in the press? Could the press have hot spots?

My guess would be that it would take a healthy sized drymounting press to allow a variety of print positions for a 20x24 print.

The tone is not inconsistent. It disappears overall the whole print. If the toning looked splotchy, then I'd look for poor agitation in the toner or developer.

That is not the case here.

Michael

blansky said:

Hi Tim,

Thanks for some of that information.

Michael

Click to expand...

Hi Michael
Delicately put. Point taken ;-)
Tim