Where'd my tone go?

blansky · Jun 27, 2006

I tone Ilford Multi Fiber WT in selenium (KRST) and lately the last few prints lost their tone when I drymounted them. 195 degrees for 3 minutes archival board, archival tissue etc

I've been doing this for years and this is the first time I've noticed any color shift. I print more than one print and in these instances I've drymounted one and kept the other unmounted.

When comparing after mounting the color tone has almost gone back to the same as an untoned WT print.

Any ideas?

Michael

unregistered · Jun 27, 2006

Weird. Not that it matters, maybe, but what strength and for how long are you toning them?

blansky · Jun 27, 2006

I haven't kept track of the strength. It started at 1:9 but I replentish when it's toning slowly so I have no idea of the strength now.

I usually tone fully for about 6-8 minutes.

I haven't changed this procedure for a long time and this last box of paper is the first I've seen the tone disappear.

Michael

unregistered · Jun 27, 2006

Is the print totally toned at that time and dilution? Maybe it is just a bad batch. Really doesn't make sense though.

John McCallum · Jun 27, 2006

Sounds like an age related tone deficiency. Often referred to as going tone def.

blansky · Jun 27, 2006

Same toner I always use. Toned for 8 or so minutes. Visibly toned. 3 of the same neg.

One toned and dry mounted-------reduced to almost no tone

One toned and not drymounted........tone intact

One not toned and not drymounted.....looks closer to toned and drymounted print, than not drymounted.

This has happened with the last batch I did with the same box of 20x24.

First time I've seen it happen.

Michael

unregistered · Jun 27, 2006

Maybe you should PM Simon and see if you can get a replacement.

blansky · Jun 27, 2006

Who is Simon?

With the type of production runs that these companies have, you'd expect that they must have changed something in their processes to have this occur.

It's hard to believe that I got a "bad" box.

I contacted Les McLean who has contacts at Ilford and I also sent Ilford an email. Whether they respond or not is anybody's guess.

I like Ilford paper but now I have to look around for a replacement. Any suggestions. I go through a 50 sheet box of 20x24 about once a month.

I use Bergger once in a while but it's a lot more money than Ilford.

Michael

Bob F. · Jun 27, 2006

See this: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) thread. The solution in that case was to reduce the press temperature. Maybe your press temperature has drifted? Probably not, but worth checking.

"Simon" is Simon Galley of Ilford who posts here a lot.

Cheers, Bob.

blansky · Jun 27, 2006

Thanks Bob.

My temp is still 195-200.

But by the thread you listed, temperature was the problem. I wonder if something has changed in the Ilford process that makes it more succeptible to this happening.

I printed last week and got the same result but the week before I was on a different box and no problem.

Michael

Claire Senft · Jun 27, 2006

3 minutes time in the press?

unregistered · Jun 27, 2006

blansky said:
Thanks Bob.

My temp is still 195-200.

But by the thread you listed, temperature was the problem. I wonder if something has changed in the Ilford process that makes it more succeptible to this happening.

I wonder why heat would take away a color that is a result of changing the silver to whatever selenium changes it to (I'm NOT a chemist!) That seems pretty weird. I've had my press freak out and go up to 300 degrees + while drying toned prints and it never took away any color for me.

I printed last week and got the same result but the week before I was on a different box and no problem.

Michael

Thats why I think you got a bad batch. It happens. I've had a certain emulsion of one type or another paper be defective and not give the results the paper is supposed to. And I've always gotten a replacement.

"Who is Simon?"

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

"With the type of production runs that these companies have, you'd expect that they must have changed something in their processes to have this occur."

Not really. Its weird, but somethines things just don't work right.

"It's hard to believe that I got a "bad" box."

It happens.

"I like Ilford paper but now I have to look around for a replacement. Any suggestions. I go through a 50 sheet box of 20x24 about once a month."

Have you tried Fomatone MG Classic? Kentmere Fineprint F.G. or Kentona? I haven't but they are warm tone papers. Then there is Forte, but selenium toning that will get you eggplant color. Nice for some things but a bit strong.

unregistered · Jun 27, 2006

Claire Senft said:
3 minutes time in the press?

That's what he said.

And...?

blansky · Jun 28, 2006

Thanks for all the replies.

Les McLean is talking to Simon today and will quiz them on this. Darkroom work is not my favorite thing and when I find a process that works for me I maintain it.

I hate when the wheels fall off and I have to start over again with a new product. I also hate when companies will deflect the blame and say I must be doing something wrong. We'll see.

I use Ilford almost exculsively FP4, HP5, 8x10 RC Pearl for proofing, 5x7 RC Pearl for proofing, 8x10, 11x14, 16x20 and 20x24, in both MG Fiber and MG Fiber WT.

It'd be a pain to switch to something else but if they are unable to maintain consistancy in their product, I will.

Thanks again.

Michael

juan · Jun 28, 2006

What fixer are you using? There's one thread somewhere on the large format forum questioning TF-4, toning and changes in paper.
juan

blansky · Jun 28, 2006

I use Ilford Hypam.

The thing is, is that I haven't changed anything in my process to make me question anything but the paper. That is the only thing that is new is the new box of paper.

MIchael

George Collier · Jun 28, 2006

Not to question your process, I know you've been doing this for a long time - but when I used to drymount everything, I used either Seal MT5 or the archival tissue, Seagull G paper, with archival board from Light Impression (their best) on a Seal 210 press. I used 210 degrees (checked with control strips) for 25-30 seconds, after prewarming the board to drive out moisture. Three minutes sounds really long - which may be what Claire was questioning.
Again, I know you have been doing this, but just my 2cents.

unregistered · Jun 28, 2006

"Three minutes sounds really long"

I've left prints in a press for 20 or 30 minutes many times. Nothing happened, except they were very hot to touch. No burning of the paper or loss of tone.

Simon R Galley · Jun 28, 2006

Dear All,

Just to let you know I have been in contact with Blansky...and I have not got the foggiest idea what has ( or could ) cause this. We are raising a QC and will be doing some control tests and we will do our absolute best to find out. Nothing has changed in the manufacturing process, we do not have ANY variation in emulsions from one coating to the next, or we do not coat them PERIOD, and any raw material changes are very carefully checked on pilot coatings ahead of coating on the main coating machine and we have not had any for some time...so I am afraid its a case of watch this space >

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

blansky · Jun 28, 2006

I did receive a PM from Simon and as he said is checking into this and sending me another box.

As for 3 minutes being a long time in the press, with 20x24 I find that I often have to give it two "bites" to get adhesion on the entire print.

I use Bienfang Buffermount which I believe took over from Seal. But as I said I print 20x24 almost every week and this is the first time for this. (last week and this week).

MIchael

unregistered · Jun 28, 2006

I see you didn't like our answers here and went over to photo.net to see if you could get anything better.

meanie.

blansky · Jun 28, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
I see you didn't like our answers here and went over to photo.net to see if you could get anything better.

meanie.

I wrote them at the same time. Only difference is you're here, along with other good people and Les McLean slid me right into Simon at Ilford.

Throw a whole bunch of mud on the wall and see what sticks.

Sticks better here.

Michael

blaze-on · Jun 28, 2006

It happens with age Michael...

a few 5-10 lb. weights and 20 minutes a day will help maintain tone to those trouble areas.

blansky · Jun 28, 2006

I may have too many "trouble areas" for just 20 minutes a day.

I've decided I'm going for the "character" look instead of the stud look.

Michael

Jim Noel · Jun 28, 2006

I use my selenium in the same manner as you indicate.
I have found through the years, more than 30, that the well aged toner which seems to have toned to the desired color has indeed not done so.
Because of this, I tone twice as long as the print color indicates.
Also, I finish by putting the print through a solution of 1% sodium sulfite for 2 minutes prior to washing and drying. This has prevented the problem of loss of tone color for me.

Where'd my tone go?

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