Where to learn about tank rotation techniques?

jay moussy · Jun 19, 2019

I have to say, to the beginner, the many tank rotation variations seem odd.
Very hard to see the rationale behind large, or subtle variants.

How to make sense of the process?

EDIT to add: manual agitation. For someone with minimal equipment and limited experience.

Peter Schrager · Jun 19, 2019

Buy the video

bdial · Jun 19, 2019

There are a zillion threads in here about problems resulting from agitation techniques. But the bottom line is that what works for some people is a dismal failure for others. You are better off finding your own way, then sticking with that unless/until it becomes a problem. If your negatives show even density in places that should be even, and without things like surge marks at the sprocket holes in 35mm, you are doing it the right way.
You can make subtle adjustments in contrast with agitation, the easiest is agitating more or less often, depending on whether you want to increase or decrease contrast, but more vigorous or less vigorous can work too.

jim appleyard · Jun 19, 2019

What kind of tank/reel combo are you using? That can make a big difference. With stainless steel there can be endless variations as it's a 3D thing. With one kind of plastic, it's a simple twist/turn affair with the number of twists being the main variable. I'd go to you tube and d find something that suits your needs. Go to developing b/w film.

mshchem · Jun 19, 2019

jay moussy said:
I have to say, to the beginner, the many tank rotation variations seem odd.
Very hard to see the rationale behind large, or subtle variants.

How to make sense of the process?

EDIT to add: manual agitation. For someone with minimal equipment and limited experience.

Ilfordphoto.com and Kodak Alaris have instructions for agitation with various developers. Kodak was always advocated, agitate continuously for first 30 seconds (small tank) then every 30 seconds for 5 seconds. Inversion can be accompanied by rotation of the tank. Paterson tank directs that after pouring in the developer you use the stirring stick for an initial 30 seconds, then put on the cap for inversion

StepheKoontz · Jun 19, 2019

I settled on a twist/invert agitation with my patterson tanks. I did not have good results with the twizzle stick thing. I use the snap on lid and give about 1/4 clockwise turn, with the lid side griped in my right hand (relax the left), as I turn it upside down. Then grip the bottom with my left (relax my right) as I give it another 1/4 clockwise turn turning it back upright.. 3 inversions takes about 5 seconds is the approximate speed of this technique. I do this continuous for the first 30 seconds, then 3 inversions every 30 seconds with most B&W films. With color I do once a minute with 4-5 cycles so the tank stays in the water bath more of the time for temp control.

jay moussy · Jun 19, 2019

jim appleyard said:
What kind of tank/reel combo are you using? That can make a big difference. With stainless steel there can be endless variations as it's a 3D thing. With one kind of plastic, it's a simple twist/turn affair with the number of twists being the main variable. I'd go to you tube and d find something that suits your needs. Go to developing b/w film.

I was given a older Kindermann unit with stainless steel reels, 35 mm and 120, very nice shape.
I also got a Kodacraft "miniature roll-film tank" and 35 mm aprons!
Both with original manuals. PO was a teacher!

I could see buying a Paterson plastic reel system or equivalent, like the Adorama's.

AgX · Jun 19, 2019

If I had read back then some of the replies here, I most likely would not have started homeprocessing... I think I got my knowledge from what was in the manual that came with my new Jobo tank.
I admit, that with buying used one often lacks a manual.

StepheKoontz · Jun 19, 2019

Trying to explain agitation with text makes it sound much more complicated than it really is. Here is a very short video showing how I agitate film. I was processing E6, which is the reason for the water bath, but I use this same agitation for any type of film.

jim appleyard · Jun 19, 2019

What Stephen has said above will work for stainless (your Kindermann or the plastic Paterson). If you have the kind if plastic with the swizzle stick, you won't be able to invert it in a 3D motion as the dev will run out. You just use a twisting back & forth motion with it. All kinds of tanks will work and you will find fans and enemies of each & every kind.

You will have to learn how to load on stainless (practice makes perfect and use a dead/dummy roll to get the hang of it), and there is no need to buy anything new. I grew up on stainless and now I can load with MY EYES CLOSED!

koraks · Jun 19, 2019

@StepheKoontz that is very similar to how I do it. Thanks for making this explicit.

Saganich · Jun 19, 2019

.

This agitation pattern works well with twists along the linear sections.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 19, 2019

Saganich said:
. View attachment 225594This agitation pattern works well with twists along the linear sections.

I do an ampersand.. which is essentially the same thing. My students think that's too hard, so they just do infinity...reversing direction after each

Bob Carnie · Jun 19, 2019

jay moussy said:
I have to say, to the beginner, the many tank rotation variations seem odd.
Very hard to see the rationale behind large, or subtle variants.

How to make sense of the process?

EDIT to add: manual agitation. For someone with minimal equipment and limited experience.

If I was to start fresh and wanted to process film I would use stainless steel tanks with stainless steel reels and do the twist and invert method of process and bang the living shit out of the tank to
reduce air bubbles.

It is a tried and true method and a great way for any beginner to start and continue to process for the rest of their time with photography

jay moussy · Jun 19, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
I do an ampersand.. which is essentially the same thing. My students think that's too hard, so they just do infinity...reversing direction after each

The person who gave me the equipment was a teacher, and ran the after-school photo lab where he taught, in the 60s and early 70s. He must have experienced the same!
He said Kodak used to regularly donate all kinds of stuff.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 19, 2019

jay moussy said:
The person who gave me the equipment was a teacher, and ran the after-school photo lab where he taught, in the 60s and early 70s. He must have experienced the same!
He said Kodak used to regularly donate all kinds of stuff.

The good old days, eh!

MattKing · Jun 19, 2019

I think it helps to understand what you are trying to accomplish through agitation.
You are trying to replace partially exhausted chemicals that are adjacent to the emulsion with less exhausted chemicals that are farther away from the emulsion.
You are trying to do that in a way that is sufficiently random as to insure that the chemical flow patterns don't establish regular surge and eddy patterns.
You are also trying to ensure that the activity of the agitation itself is controlled and reasonably repeatable - one roll should get about the same amount of agitation energy as the next.
There are an almost infinite number of discrete but fairly similar ways to accomplish this.
I like to ensure that the chemicals tumble and gurgle through the reels and film. I make sure that my agitation pattern involves both inversion and twisting at the same time. And I default to an agitation "frequency" that is moderate, comfortable for me, and repeatable.
If you want to know how to both twist and invert at the same time, grab the tank with one hand on each end. Now turn your hands the way you would turn a steering wheel until one hand is immediately above the other. Then reverse, until the other hand is at the top.
You will note that the motion of your wrists automatically causes the tank to twist - thus giving you both inversion and twisting together, and in both directions. You should be able to hear/feel the chemicals tumbling and gurgling through the film as you so.

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2019

When I started B&W it was on a nightschool course and as far as I recall we were told to use the simple inversion system and as I discovered later by reading the Ilford processing sheets it was the agitation regime recommended by Ilford - well it was ID 11 we were using - so nothing fancy. Now I have been here a few years I probably do a bit of a turn and twist like Stephe. I am not sure whether I remember to reverse the twist religiously but probably not.

My early films seem no different from my later films.

Matt's routine seems to be the best but if I had never found APUG now Photrio would I have experienced agitation problems from my simple invert a la the nightschool method? Well the evidence suggests not but overall I do feel better if I "twist again" occasionally like Chubby did

pentaxuser

StepheKoontz · Jun 19, 2019

I think I added the twist when I started developing 6x9 on 120 and noticed some streaking with simple inversion. It's probably not as important on 35mm films.

Fin · Jun 19, 2019

jay moussy said:
I was given a older Kindermann unit with stainless steel reels, 35 mm and 120, very nice shape.

jay moussy said:
I could see buying a Paterson plastic reel system or equivalent, like the Adorama's.

If you have a stainless tank with a lid that doesn't leak everywhere, you don't need none of that plastic rubbish! If it does leak and you can't find a replacement, get a Nikor tank and use electrical tape around the seal.

Oh, and as far as agitation goes, I've always used something like the Kodak method, 30 secs initially, than 5 seconds of agitation every 30 seconds. Ted Forbes has done a few videos about film developing which are pretty good and show an agitation style we always used to teach at a photography center, they are on YouTube under The Art Of Photography

Where to learn about tank rotation techniques?

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