Where to get Ilfochrome P-30

Photo Engineer · Jun 9, 2005

I have a list of about 5 substitutes for phenazine that can be used in dye bleach solutions if you wish. I don't know which one is used currently. I have searched for my old Ilford formulas, but cannot find them. I must have thrown them out.

One caution is this. Low contrast black and white developers often do not give low contrast by lowering the amount of silver, they do it by changing the form of the silver image so that it appears low in contrast. However, dye bleach works on the quantity of silver formed not the way it appears to the human eye, so this can fool you when you are playing with low contrast developers.

PE

SkipA · Jun 9, 2005

Thanks PE, Roger, Bob, and Donald. I looked up the MSDS for quinoline and it is apparently a fairly hazardous chemical too. Maybe almost as bad as Phenazine. I'm careful with chemicals, but I still think I might be better off trying the P3 bleach with one of the modified developers that Roger mentioned.

Bob, now I'm confused about the paper types. Which one should I use if I want a very bright and color saturated glossy image?

Donald Qualls · Jun 10, 2005

PE, I'd be very interested in the list of dye bleach candidate chemicals. From what I've read, if I can make the bleach myself (and I'm pretty sure I can if at least one of the chemicals is obtainable -- nothing in that bleach is likely to be any more hazardous than the dichromate used in C-41 bleach, which people use for lots of things pretty routinely and safely), I can cut the cost of processing the Ilfochrome enough to be worth obtaining and cutting the paper or display film. It'd be nice to be able to get it precut to 9x12 cm film size, of course, to fit my sheaths...

Donald Qualls · Jun 10, 2005

ras351 said:
Firstly the developer is basically a normal B&W developer with a small amount of thiosulphate added to remove the masking layer.

Given what the process is, I'm not sure I understand the need to remove a masking layer in developing. Won't that layer (presumably a colloidal silver yellow filter layer like the ones found in C-41 and E-6 materials) be removed in the bleaching and fixing steps, just like the developed silver image?

Bob Carnie · Jun 10, 2005

Skip
There are four different papers available for cibachrome printing that have the melimex base and high gloss( these are the only papers I use) as well there is an rc version , which I do not use .
CFK= LOW CONTRAST
CLMK= MEDIUM CONTRAST
CPS = HIGHER CONTRAST
UNIVERSAL = LAMBDA OR DIGITAL WRITER ( I have used this under enlarger no problem) characteristics mimic cps but the blue rendition is much better.

My crystal ball predicts Ilford will at some time cut production of the cut sheet versions and will only produce the universal.

this will present some problems for enlarger base printing but is easily fixed by followings Donald Millers advice on contrast masking. I have read his article and also posts and he definately has a good grasp on contrast control.
You would be able to make masks to control contrast if Ilford decides to downsize the paper selection.

At the moment I am using only universal under the enlarger and with the lambda. If the transparacy is normal I will print traditional, if the trans is dirty, contrasty , I will print using lambda and photoshop.

Photo Engineer · Jun 10, 2005

Here are dye bleach catalysts from PS and E journal Vol 18, #5 in an article by Dr. Armin Meyer, Ciba Geigy Photochemie Ltd, Research Division.

From figure 6, he lists pyrazine, quinoxaline, 2,3 dimethyl-quinoxaline, phenazine and napthazine.

I can get more from other publications if you wish, but it appears that the notes that I took on the exact formulas have vanished and all I have is sketchy information.

If Ilfochrome uses a yellow silver filter layer, it can interact with the dyes in adjacent layers during the bleach process and lower their density. A yellow silver layer would have to be inactivated or somehow isolated from the adjacent layers to prevent crosstalk. If it uses a yellow dye layer, then this layer could interact with the silver in the adjacent layers and end up raising their density as it uses up silver being bleached itself. So, any yellow filter layer would have to be inactive or removed before the dye bleach process began. I suspect that the layer, if present, may be somehow compensated for in the design of the product.

You might do a search on Armin Meyer in the patent literature.

PE

Dug · Jun 10, 2005

SkipA:

My source for P30 kits is www.rainierphoto.com.

They are a Seattle supplier with good prices and are super helpful - they ship.

The photo stores in Seattle appear to be "renovating" their analog photo areas, and you can probably guess that the floor space devoted to them is not increasing. *Sigh*

ras351 · Jun 10, 2005

Donald Qualls said:
Given what the process is, I'm not sure I understand the need to remove a masking layer in developing. Won't that layer (presumably a colloidal silver yellow filter layer like the ones found in C-41 and E-6 materials) be removed in the bleaching and fixing steps, just like the developed silver image?

Hi Donald,

As PE suggests Ilfochrome has a yellow filter/silver masking layer between the yellow dye (blue sensitive) and magenta dye (green sensitive) layers to help reduce crosstalk. The yellow dye layer is nearest the top, followed by the magenta layer, followed by the cyan dye layer (red sensitive). Ilford made the change many years ago in order to improve the blue (magenta+cyan) reproduction and it needs to be removed before bleaching or you end up with a strong dark blue cast to your image. Testing continues...

Roger.

Donald Qualls · Jun 11, 2005

Okay, so you have a developer with a mild bleach in it -- thiocyanate -- to remove the mask by converting it to a form that doesn't interact with the dye destruction bleach.

Did the original Ciba folks who developed this process have two heads, by chance?

legend · Jun 12, 2005

Thanks god, I still got quite a few P30 kit.

I got this from the ilford forum.

Here's the word from management:
"The reorganization of Ilford LTD. did cause interruption to production in the factories. Chemical production has been re-established and inventory levels of chemistry and media are returning to normal. We intend to support the Ilfochrome Classic product line for as long as market demand is sufficient to support it."

SkipA · Jun 12, 2005

That's good news, but no idea when the chemicals will begin shipping to the US, I suppose?

gr82bart · Jun 12, 2005

What you might want to do is post your question at Cafe ILFOPRO. It's dedicated forum to Ilford products and has an Ilford rep, I think, posting regularly.

Art.

SkipA · Jun 13, 2005

Thanks, Art. I notice a few APUGers on that forum, too.

Skip.

Dug · Jun 13, 2005

Cafe Ilfopro never really got off the ground in the Ilfochrome area. These discussion boards need a certain amount of people to get going. The best information I have about Ilfochrome is actually an out-of-print Cibachrome book from the 70's. Ctein's book "Post Exposure" and Bruce Barnham's book have a bit of discussion of filtering.

I'll keep y'all posted when Rainier Photo gets a shipment of P-30.

gr82bart · Jun 13, 2005

Dug said:
Cafe Ilfopro never really got off the ground in the Ilfochrome area. These discussion boards need a certain amount of people to get going.

I don't know. It has several thousand posts and most topics and threads appear to have posts with the past day or two. Seems like it has achieved some critical mass. Maybe a slow start. To be honest, I hardly check there myself, but when I did this past weekend, I was pleasantly surprised to the content.

Art.

Dug · Jun 13, 2005

Art - You are right about the rest of the Cafe Ilfopro site, it HAS picked up lately. I am concerned about the lack of activity in the Ilfochrome topic area. I get a lot more useful info from the APUG color developing topic area in terms of Ilfochrome data. It would probably behoove us all to get more active on the Ilford site and get people interested in their products. Hope we can collectively keep consuming enough Ilfochrome material to keep it in production!

gr82bart · Jun 13, 2005

Dug said:
It would probably behoove us all to get more active on the Ilford site and get people interested in their products. Hope we can collectively keep consuming enough Ilfochrome material to keep it in production!

You bring up a very good point. The more interest is shown in Ilford products, maybe, just maybe, there will be a bit of influence as well.

Art.

Marco Gilardetti · Jun 15, 2005

SkipA said:
Paper seems to be readily available.

Good Lord, where???

SkipA · Jun 16, 2005

B&H has it in stock, Marco. Much of it is in large sheets, but there is 8x10 too showing to be in stock.

For example, they have 50 sheet 16x20 CPS.1K. Also 50 sheet 16x20 CF.1K, 20 sheet 30x40 CPS.1K, 25 sheet 20x24 CF.1K, 50 sheet 11x14 CLM.1K. They have 100 sheet boxes of 8x10 CPS.1K, which is what I'd be most interested in initially. Also 100 sheet 8x10 CF.1K. And so on. True, most of the papers are "special order", meaning out of stock, but there are a lot of choices still in stock.

It's just not much good if you don't have the P-30 kits to process it. Unless you are processing large quantities and can use the P-3 stuff.

EdM · Jun 17, 2005

E-mail from Ilford Imaging Switzerland GMBH

On 6/16 I received an e-mail from Ilford tech support which said that P30 is discontinued. In its place a 5 litre kit based on P3 chemistry, all in liquid concentrate will be available.

Ed

BlackandWhite40 · Jun 17, 2005

P30 will be back not in it's 2x1 Litre pack, but as a 3L kit..... request further information from..

ILFORD Imaging Group
Case Postale 160,
CH1723 Marly 1,
Switzerland
Tel: 00 41 26 435 71 11
Fax: 00 41 26 435 72 12

ch-info@ilford.com
ch-technical@ilford.com
ch-sales@ilford.com
ch-customer@ilford.com

Website - www.ilford.ch

thedarkroomstudios · Jun 17, 2005

I have (2) P30 2x1L kits in-stock @ $42.95/kit.

Dug · Jun 22, 2005

I just got a call from my supplier - the p3.5 (5 liter) kits will ship in 2 weeks.

Bob Barker: " The Actual Retail price is..... $137.65"

So the price per liter from the P30 to the p3.5 has gone from $20.50 to $27.50.

*sigh*

Marco Gilardetti · Jun 23, 2005

I'm even surprised it's still there...

Of course, however, a 5 litres kit has almost no use for amateur photographers, so the market target is no longer the little photographer printing in the kitchen.

Very sad.

EdM · Jun 23, 2005

Marco Gilardetti said:
I'm even surprised it's still there...

Of course, however, a 5 litres kit has almost no use for amateur photographers, so the market target is no longer the little photographer printing in the kitchen.

Very sad.

Why is it of almost no use to the amateur photograher? The 5 litre kit will (according to the Swiss source) be mixed one litre at a time just like the 2 litre kit was. Considering the keeping properties of the stock solutions, I can live with that.

Ed

Where to get Ilfochrome P-30

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