Where do I start on medium format?

I've been looking to get into MF for a couple of months now, but I'm having trouble finding the camera for me. (I'm coming from a Canon 1Ds background). My criteria are fairly simple:

1. Needs waistlevel. I love the size and ergonomics. May have a prism, but that'd be an optional extra.
2. Because of 1), needs to be either 6x6 or have a rotating back. Bonus points if the film spools horizontally so I can do 135 landscape with full width film in a 120 back.
3. I want something small enough to carry around with me during the day or go out with
4. Because I'm from the short attention span digital generation, I don't want to spend too much money while I figure out if film is right for me.
5. Needs to have the classic 'blad ergonomics rather than the traditional slr format

I figure that 1) and 5) give me the etr, sq, 500, RZ and sl66 series cameras to choose from. 2) rules out the etr series, 3) rules out the RZ series and 4) rules out the 500 and sl66 series (looking at sub $400 - maybe stretch to $500), and only the sq-a is left. The problem is that cameras and lenses are amazingly priced, but finders and 120 backs are expensive to the point of insulting (seriously, $90 for a body, $110 for a good lens, yet $160 for a waistlevel and $150 for a back?)

Given I have no experience in film at all, I was wondering if I should stop waiting for an sq-a to come my way grab an etrs setup to learn with since it's the smallest and only misses on point 2. But the sq is the same width and height and 2cm longer, and to be honest I don't think I could love the etrs as much since I have my heart set on a 6x6.

I've been lurking here since I decided I want to upgrade to film. Can any of you mf veterans provide insight to help me make up my mind? (Or maybe have a fantastic camera gathering dust you'd part with?)

Another option is a YashicaMat or Mamiya TLR: small, light, waist level finder, 6x6 and cheap.

As for the SQ cameras, they do look like they fit your criteria. I don't know how prices are over there, generally waist level finders are very expensive as there are none around. So make sure you get a body with the finder still attached to it. Also, I can get a back for £40 in the UK from a shop with warranty, don't know where you find them for $150? In any case, buying a complete kit (body, WLF, back, lens) is always cheaper than buying parts separately.

Also, you can get a 35mm back for the SQ to do panoramic shots. Image size is about 24 x 65mm.


Steve.

The only places I can find them are keh and ebay, that's where I'm getting my prices from. The cheapest is $133 for a 120 back but $19 for a 220 back. I assume the mechanics are the same except for the pressure plate, that's why I'm baulking at buying these. I'm in Aus too.

The SQ-135W backs are serious money (when I can find them), and I think the sprocket holes are kinda neat so I'd be happy with modding a 120 back (or is 135 film the thickness of 220?), but I think I'd definitely want a prism finder if the film spools vertically.

I'm leaving the TLR option as my last resort because the ones I've seen were a bit bulky. I think Hasselblad got the formula right with camera ergonomics

I'd second staring with a TLR, one UK store currently has a number at about £50/$80 (MWClassic), and UK prices are usually higher than US.

Get used to the format then move on to an MF SLR or Rangefinder, the TLR would then be a backup camera.

Except for the Mamiya's as TLR is no more bulky than a MF SLR even the 645's, in fact the Yachicamats are lighter.

Ian

postalman said:

The SQ-135W backs are serious money (when I can find them), and I think the sprocket holes are kinda neat so I'd be happy with modding a 120 back (or is 135 film the thickness of 220?), but I think I'd definitely want a prism finder if the film spools vertically.

Click to expand...

They are certainly not cheap!

I assumed that they would run horizontally but I'm not really sure. My ETRS runs the film vertically so thinking about it, I assume the SQ does too.

EDIT: Have a look at this picture: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2644/4127270135_01b0554019.jpg

It shows an SQ masked horizontally for the panoramic frame so the film must run horizontally.


Steve.

I would also recommend a TLR to start with. Yashica, Rolleicord Vb or Rolleiflex T. That would fit all your criteria except the pano use of 35mm film. Waist level finder, small, light, cubic, comparably cheap. If you seriously want a Hasselblad, you should buy a Hasselblad. I´m a big fan of the SL66, but it has transformed into a collectors camera during the last years. You´d have to spend around 1000 bucks if you want a SL66 in good shape, have it CLAd and a brighter screen installed. Remember these cameras are 30-40 years old now. The same amount of money will buy you a Hasselblad that is less than 15 years old. Same goes for the lenses. The SL is also comparably large for a 6x6 camera, nearly as large as a RB67. It really shines if you want to do a lot of macro work though.

120 film is cheaper than 35mm film so why would you bother with a 135 back? It boggles my mind...

If you want a simple, cheap, light body with a WLF then get a TLR like the above mentioned Yashicas. The Mamiya C330 for something heavier but with interchangeable lenses.

If you want a good system camera with a rotating back and optional WLF/prism finders get a Mamiya RB. Fully mechanical, dirt cheap used, 6x7 landscape is awesome, fits paper better than 6x9 or 135 panorama. If you want a more modern version, the RZ. Both can take Polaroid and !@#$ backs as well as 120/220 and even sheet film. Very versatile systems.

If you want something really small that fits in a pocket then a folder is your only real option for MF. The 6x6 folders are really compact though getting one with a coupled rangefinder isn't easy or cheap. If you want a simple scale (guess or use a tape measure) focused model then they can be found dirt cheap as long as you don't want a collectable model. There are big 6x9 folders too if you don't mind a 'tall' pocket model and want those big wide landscape negs.

Another vote for a TLR. Yashica's and Mamiya's are great cameras. The Yash's are light and have good quality fixed lenses. Mamiya's are a bit heavier, and have interchangable lenses, view finders, and screens, very versatile. While some models of Yashica's take only 120(some only 220)film, most take both, as do the Mamiyas, without changing backs, only rotating the pressure plate. There are many more brands of TLR cameras, but my vote is for either of these. I usually carry a Yashica D around town, and occasionally a Mamiya, the Yash is much lighter.

If you require the ergonomics of a Blad, then you either get a Blad, or a Bronica, which is often referred to as a baby Blad.
As with all things in life, there are many compromises and that's no different when it comes to photo gear.
There is no such thing as the ONE perfect camera.

You have done your research, and you seem to have already made up your mind.
Now, just do it. Get the camera you want.
None of us want to share in your buyers remorse, or blame, by talking you out of acquiring the camera you truly want.

Most 35mm panoramic adapters for MF are a royal PITA to use, and the prices for the adapters are way over priced.
As with most photo gear, items that are in good condition or barely used condition, exact premium prices. Items like 35mm adapters sell high and in good condition, because they were never used much (if, at all), and few people want to futz with them.
IIRC, you can use an app in PhotoShop (?), to add the sprocket-hole look of 35mm film, after you have cropped an image from MF.

The pricing disparity between 120 and 220 backs is mostly based on supply and demand.
There just isn't that much variety in 220 film anymore, never was. 120 film has a long life ahead; 220 film...not so much.

Be patient.
Many people have taken years to acquire all the pieces for their system, or components for their cameras.
Whatever system you buy into, and should you decide later that it's not for you, then you will be able to sell at
basically little or no loss, if you waited for good prices while buying in the first place.

I recommend a TLR. It might look bulky to you, but I find my Rollei much easier to handhold than a Hasselblad.

Of course, if you are willing to use a tripod, there's no better camera than a Hasselblad,.

I don't think any of us can give you more helpful advice than this: go to a camera store with a good used inventory, and try them out before you buy. You might pay a little more for the camera, but you'd save the money and aggravation from buying the wrong thing, and you'd probably get a warranty. You can't really know what feels best for you until you actually hold it.

Have you thought about how you are going to handle the film and film development? That's probably a bigger step than the camera. Again, making friends at a camera store will be helpful, whether you are going to have them process your film or whether you want to start by processing your own.

-Laura

I started in MF w/a TLR by borrowing a friends YashicaMat 124 (non-G!!!!) then bought a MInolta Autocord which needed a new leatherette (which i enjoyed replacing) and i've enjoyed using it.

I don't have much history w/MF, but i've enjoyed my choices so far. I bought into the RB67 System and it's awesome! So modular (heavy, but so what....) and the IQ is there.

Sounds like you mostly want a TLR. The square format is nice. A yashica or rolleiflex/rolleicord will be lighter than most pro DSLRs. If you bought it in proper working order, you could sell it for the same money (or perhaps more as the cult grows). $150-500 should buy something quite nice. Rolleis much over $500 usually have modest improvements that not everyone needs, like brighter planar lenses instead of f3.5 tessar, exclusive or limited production collectible variants, newish condition, etc...

I would suggest a TLR as a good starter, unless you buy a Mamiya they are light to carry, you won't worry about which lens to use,and if you buy a Rollei, either cord or flex you will probably find the quality is sooo good that you will never want another camera,Richard

I think the consensus right now is a TLR. I second (or seventh?) that. Although a simple RB system can be had for super cheap and has a waistelevel finder, good ergonomics, multiple backs, and doesn't really way that much...

Although there is probably no MF system that will fit your requests 100%, I think you might want to start with a 645 system. You would get a little bigger negative than a 35mm, and they are usually small but have a lot of the features of a bigger camera. I have a RB67 that I like, but the size is something to work around. A 645 Pentax or Mamiya might be the camera to look into. If you don't like that format, nothing says you have to stay with it. Have fun whatever you do.

I was where you are a year ago and came up with a different solution. I chose a late '40s folding camera - a Zeiss Ikonta 521/16 for $100 on eBay. It is much simpler and less capable than what you are looking at, but it has been great fun. It was really cheap, produces a nice 6x6 negative with a 70 mm lens, is no bigger than a 35mm in the hands and folds up to fit into a jacket pocket. It's a wonderful little machine. It's not the ultimate solution, but it will do until I decide to get more complicated.

Have no clue at all what type of MF shooting you're planning. I'll play contrarian and recommend you avoid an old TLR, especially a fixed lens model. Mamiya TLRs aren't petite and, while giving lens options, still have baked-in parallax problems with close-up work, along with age-related issues. I love my Bronica SQ-B but admit I lucked out getting a like-new kit 2 years ago that I'd have trouble replacing now for close to the same money. I'd like to expand the system but choke at the price of 120 backs and rare lenses like the 135 and 180. My Mamiya 645 kit doesn't get much use outside the studio, though it's flexible and very portable. My favorite is a Mamiya RB 67 Pro S kit that I shoot almost everywhere. Their bulk(not actually that awful)is offset by bellows focusing, rotating backs, a huge plasma-like focus screen that's killer with a WLF, leaf shutter lenses, and overall affordability thanks to huge system sales. I don't think relics are the best way to enjoy MF, especially when they require repairs whose cost can jump past the purchase price. Get the newest gear at the best price within your budget.

Never met a camera with waist level that runs the film horizontally except for the 6x7 Mamiyas and I don't think you can run 35 thought them off the shelf. Doing that off the shelf would involve a lot of film waste... you will understand once you see how much leader paper is used with MF film.

You might want to consider the Mamiya rangefinder 6x6 and 6x7 they had a 35mm adapter.
Or just crop your square slides horizontal ways.

Thanks for all the ideas! (well, mostly one idea many times - I'll assume it's probably a good one then). The RB/RZ would be fantastic as it checks all the functionality boxes but I'm already finding situations where I don't want to take my 1Ds out because the weight and bulk is a hassle to carry around all day, so the RB/RZ just wouldn't get the love it deserved.

I should have mentioned, not interested in studio work (don't have access to one, can't afford one, don't have space for one and frankly find it a little boring), I'm more into candid and environmental portraiture with a dabble in landscapes.

I'll see if I can find some TLR's to have a play with and get a feel for the handling, since I did dismiss them rather quickly. And maybe reconsider an RZ since they're so darn cheap, but it'll probably come down to etrs vs TLR of some sort and upgrade to a sq or 500 later - the decision would be easier if the etr gear was compatible with sq

For location work ie off the tripod, I just thought the RB/RZ to be too heavy. That is why I bought the nearly indestructable Blad. It is a tool that has served me well in hard and dirty situations... and I have a Leaf Aptus back in addition to film backs.

postalman said:

I've been looking to get into MF for a couple of months now, but I'm having trouble finding the camera for me. (I'm coming from a Canon 1Ds background). My criteria are fairly simple:

1. Needs waistlevel. I love the size and ergonomics. May have a prism, but that'd be an optional extra.
2. Because of 1), needs to be either 6x6 or have a rotating back. Bonus points if the film spools horizontally so I can do 135 landscape with full width film in a 120 back.
3. I want something small enough to carry around with me during the day or go out with
4. Because I'm from the short attention span digital generation, I don't want to spend too much money while I figure out if film is right for me.
5. Needs to have the classic 'blad ergonomics rather than the traditional slr format

Click to expand...

Hi,

Glad you are going to start shooting medium format! You will likely be very pleased with the results, and will help to keep the format alive!

As for your criteria:

1. WLF - You are fortunate here, because most medium format cameras have a WLF not only as an option, but as the standard finder. RZs, Hassies, Bronica SQ's, Mamiya M645's, Kievs (88, 60, 645), Exacta 66, Pentax 6x7's, etc. can all use WLFs or prism finders. The ones that are definitely ruled out here are Pentax 645, and some later Mamiya 6x4.5's.

2. As you can see from the above list, the frame size does not determine whether or not you can use a WLF. On 6 cm cameras, WLFs can be found on 6x4.5, 6.6, 6x7, and 6x8 cameras that I know of. There were also 2x3 Graflex RB SLRs made (http://graflex.org/articles/series-d/), and they can be adapted to use roll film backs. They, of course, have WLFs.

As for cameras in which the film runs horizontally, the RB is a sure bet, as are the Pentax 67, Kiev 60 (and Kiev 645, though you probably don't want to bother running 35mm through a camera that shoots 645 verticals), and the Pentacon Six and Exacta 66. (Mamiya 6 and 7 and Press series as well, but they are not SLRs.) Hassy is out, Mamiya 6x4.5 is out, and Bronica is out unless you get one of the vertical RF models; again, no WLF.

3. Here you have to make a choice. In order to meet this requirement, you have to abandon Mamiya, Pentax, and Bronica 6x7's and the Kiev 60 and Exakta 66 to meet the *smallish* criterion. Unfortunately, these are your best options for running 35mm film through the camera. You are left with 6x4.5 and 6x6 component systems, none of which run the film horizontally TMK.

So, I think that to meet this criterion you either sacrifice the WLF and get a Mamiya 7 (which BTW has an actual factory-made accessory for running 35mm through the camera), or you sacrifice the "smalllishness."

However, I am of the opinion that the only reason that makes a lot of sense for running 35mm through a medium format camera is if you want to use an emulsion that is not available in medium format. But now, with the recent gutting of color films by both Fuji and Kodak, these 35mm-only emulsions are few and far between; you have a few amateur color neg and slide films, some T-Max 3200, and maybe a few others. If you do the math, you see that you won't save much, if any, money over simply shooting medium format and cropping down when you print. And when you do this, you also gain the huge advantage of a significant amount of effective shift. This means that you can orient your camera however you want to get the distortion the way you want it (either reduced or exaggerated), and then crop later to get the equivalent of perhaps the most important view camera control.

So, IMO, don't rule out cameras that don't meet your size requirements simply because the film does not travel horizontally.

4. Again, Contax and newer Mamiyas are out, and maybe Hassy, depending on the kit you want. Everything else is really quite dirt cheap for what you get. And even Hassies are a good buy now. But remember that everything for them tends to be more expensive, including repairs.

5. Then go with Hassy, SQ, Mamiya M645, or Bronica 6x4.5 SLR. I wouldn't monkey with Kiev 88's. Contax 6x4.5's are out, as are the newer AF Mamiya 645's, because they have the grip built in TMK. So are the Pentax 6x7, Kiev 60/645, and Exacta 66, because they are not compact "squares" like the component cameras.

I would say that the RB can be hand held and carried all day in regards to weight and size. They're not the best for this, but it is possible; I have done it. However, the speed of the lenses might limit you to shooting in strong light, while there are plenty of 2.8 lenses with those other systems.

I would go with a leaf shutter myself, just for a bit of versatility with flash, so SQ or Hassy would be my final verdict IMO...tho' I love my Mamiya M645 system, and I can get leaf shutter lenses for it if I want to.

A WLF on a 645 like the Mamiya or Bronica gives extra meaning to the term "awkward" for portrait-oriented shots. With a plain or metered prism finder and a left-handed grip or motorized grip, these are great for the kind of shooting you described. They're fast handling and not that heavy. Very affordable, too.

2F/2F said:

Bronica is out unless you get one of the vertical RF models; again, no WLF.

3. Here you have to make a choice. In order to meet this requirement, you have to abandon Mamiya, Pentax, and Bronica 6x7's and the Kiev 60 and Exakta 66 to meet the *smallish* criterion. Unfortunately, these are your best options for running 35mm film through the camera. You are left with 6x4.5 and 6x6 component systems, none of which run the film horizontally TMK.

Click to expand...

Don't forget that the SQ series (and the ETR series) has 35mm backs; a standard 24x36 frame and a 24x54 panoramic.

Leaf shutters... Nuf said... I had to shoot fill flash outdoors a lot... Hasselblad or Bronica (new Seiko shuttered lenses).