Where do I begin?

I'm sure this topic has been covered before, so ignore me if necessary. A quick search of this forum didn't hit on exactly what I was looking for.

I've been using 35mm for a while and I am really keen to start on LF. I have fantasies about 11x14 negatives that won't go away. I'm looking for some advice, given my situation, on how to start.

First, I am not broke but I do not have massive amounts of money to spend. I assume that my entry to LF will be with tiny-sized 4x5 film, which is readily available to me and (relatively) cheap.

Can you suggest a reasonable entry-level system for 4x5 film?

Second, I use a public darkroom and it's well-equipped in some senses but not others. Will I have difficulties tray processing the 4x5 negatives? Most of the enlargers have 4x5 negative carriers.

I've recently acquired AA's "The Negative" but it's not delivered yet. Any other recommendations on books that might be appropriate for an experienced 35mm photographer looking to make the jump into the big pool?

Last, I assume that whatever camera I end up with will have no light metering--is that correct? Any suggestions on an entry-level light meter?

I appreciate any and all help!

Better still ask one of the 5x4 users in or around Toronto is you can go out and about with them, you'll learn far more in an hour or two than in days of reading, there's nothingt better than hands on experience.

Ian

You will need to decide on what you want to do with your camera. The advantage of LF (aside from the large neg) are the movements the camera offers. Depending on what you intend to shoot, that will determine what type of camera you wish. you also need to make decisions around new vs second hand etc.

I support the idea of fiding someone who has one and at least deciding that it is what you really want to do...LF is not cheap, but extremely rewarding...but it also is not for everyone (it will be a uge change from 35mm....I came to it via Medium Format).

Budget makes to consider are Shen Hao's, Toyo 45CF etc..

Rgds, Kal

As for books I liked this one

http://www.amazon.com/Using-View-Ca...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261053712&sr=8-4

for camers

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=22

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=23

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=24



or you could build your own

Dead Link Removed

good luck!

Welcome to the world of large format. The statement you made about 11X14 negatives not going away indicates to me that you are willing to jump into the deep black hole that is LF. Fear not, there is help. First, do you want a field camera or a monorail? Great field cameras can be had for $500-$700, and monorails for only a couple of hundred bucks. Check out the Shen Hao and the Chamonix, or a used ZoneVI. Get a spot meter. I found a used Solgar for less than $200, but KEH has Pentax spots for reasonable prices. Find something that explains the basics about EV [exposure values] and placement in the zone system. Tray development is pretty simple if you start out with a couple of sheets at a time. You might be surprised at what you can do with a 4X5 neg and an enlarger. As you probably already know, when you get up to 8X10 and 11X14 your going to be doing contact printing and that's another deep black hole to jump into. PM me if you want, we'll start a LFA [Large Format Anonymous] twelve step program or just talk about this some more.

Ian's advice, as usual, is excellent, you might also investigate attending a workshop.

The Negative will tell you a lot about exposing film, but not so very much about using a LF camera. It's also a pretty daunting introduction to the Zone system and sensitometry, at least I found it so.
If you can find a copy of Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop book, it provides a much easier introduction to much of the same information.

A good starter 4x5 camera that's often mentioned is a Crown Graphic, these are available in good condition from around 150 USD on up, including a lens. They are compact when folded, and easy to work with.

Very few LF cameras have light meters, some will argue the point, but the gold standard for general purpose light meters is the Gossen Luna Pro. The SBC model uses a standard 9v battery and is available for 100 USD +-.
Sekonic also makes excellent meters that can be obtained for relatively low-cost, which are just a good overall.

heinzkeinz said:

I have fantasies about 11x14 negatives that won't go away.

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Well, if those are your fantasies then go for it. I have an 11x14 and lenses to cover it, why not come down here and shoot it

I started with a crown graphic and that was a very nice entry to LF.

Join the Large Format Photography Forum. Search, read, study, learn. Make a list of what you will need. In 30 days you will be granted access to the For Sale listings at the Forum. Absolutely anything and everything that you need will be listed for sale there. Perhaps not right away, but soon enough. A Want To Buy ad will get offers. A good tripod and suitable head should be on your list right behind camera & lens. You may already have those two items so that's good.

Good luck!

I'd suggest considering a 5x7 instead of 4x5 camera. 4x5 is a bit too small for contact printing and 5x7 makes a nice contact print, IMHO. Of course, you can find 4x5 enlargers for le$$ than 5x7 (or 8x10) format, but your notion of 11x14 brings up the contact print vs. enlargement issue. A 5x7 camera is not that much larger than typical 4x5 models. However, there is a huge difference once you hit 8x10 and beyond. You can always rig a 4x5 reducing back to a 5x7 and have the best of both worlds with just a little more weight, size, and price.

After more than a year spent as a research assistant, scanning and archiving 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, and 7x17 negatives for John Scarlata (my photo professor), I have felt the urge to get into LF or even ULF very strongly. Those huge negatives are simply amazing and I would love to be able to make 8x10 contact prints.

Few of my film cameras have built-in meters (only the F3 at the moment), and I learned exposure using a hand-held Sekonic L-86 meter with a Yashica 635 TLR. My current meter is a Sekonic L-308s (there have been several very similar models); it is a small and not-too-pricey digital meter (<$200?) with incident and reflected modes for both ambient and flash. It's what I use with my RB67. When I had a Calumet monorail in 1999-2000, I used a Sekonic L-158, which was very similar to the L-86; both are match-needle meters with selenium photosensors - no battery required but light levels have to be reasonable for them to work. I've played with the Gossen and Minolta meters but never bought one due to my sentimental attachment to Sekonic.

I like the suggestion from smieglitz for a 5X7 with an additional 4X5 back. If you have access to the 4X5 enlargers for enlargements and 5X7 jewel like contacts, that's a pretty versatile combination.

Try everything Come on down, you'll get 4x5, 5x7, 5x8, 4x10, 8x10, 11x14, and on top of that we have the famous Virginia hams and spicy crab dip....

Follow Ian Grants advice - find someone or several people with 5x4 Cameras

Listen to wheat they have to say, go with them when they take them out to "play" and try them out on your sort of subject.

I made the jump a few years ago after following similar advice.

LF is completely different from 35mm or MF - it’s almost like starting all over again.

However, don't be daunted - LF is terrific fun and once mastered the quality of the images will knock your socks off

Martin

If you want to shoot B&W only then I second the suggestion for 5x7. It's a little longer (less squatty) and I really like that. That said, color film seems to be settling in on two sizes... 4x5 and 8x10... both are easy to find but other sizes are not as abundant. If you want to shoot color, sad as I am to say it, I suggest either 4x5 or 8x10.

These are the issues you face moving from 35 or 2 1/4 to LF:
size and weight of outfit
(probably) necessity of using a tripod
understanding LF camera movements
understanding hand held light meters
availability of film
processing requirements of sheet film
probably needing LF enlarger
shooting LF slows you WAY down in your imaging process
You won't know until you get the equipment and give it a try. You may love it, despite your current dreams you may find it is not for you.
Start with 4x5 and a lens, that is equivalent to your most used lens in other formats. At first you may not need a light meter, but use a digi or other camera you have for a reading.
Try to get equipment here or on largeformatphotography.com. I find there to be excellent prices for used things.
Ansel Adams' books are all you need for now - or ever. By the time you fully absorb what Ansel wrote, you hardly need any other books.
Doing LF from taking to processing must be experienced before you know, if it is 'your thing'.

4x5 contact prints are the perfect compromise of imagery beauty , my fav size contact print. 10x8 a close second

My offer in post #13 remains...

heinzkeinz said:

Can you suggest a reasonable entry-level system for 4x5 film?

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Crown graphic. A full kit with lens should run you ~$300. Add film holders and you're in business. Later if you decide to get another camera with more movements and such, you'll still love your crown.

heinzkeinz said:

Will I have difficulties tray processing the 4x5 negatives?

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No problems, it's easy.

heinzkeinz said:

I've recently acquired AA's "The Negative" but it's not delivered yet. Any other recommendations on books that might be appropriate for an experienced 35mm photographer looking to make the jump into the big pool?

Click to expand...

There are vast resources here and at the LF site, you honestly don't need to spend a lot of money on technical books. One book that interests me is Ralph Lambrecht's, and that may well be my first broad technical book; I haven't seen the new edition yet though. Of the ~dozen photography books I have, all but one are on photographers and their output, not on the technical aspects. The one technical one is Grant Haist's Monobath Manual!

heinzkeinz said:

Last, I assume that whatever camera I end up with will have no light metering--is that correct? Any suggestions on an entry-level light meter?!

Click to expand...

You can use your 35mm to meter. Some 35mm cameras have metering features that greatly exceed those of meters costing much more! I use a DSLR to meter all the time.

Now that I've used both I can honestly say that I really love the 5x7 format and will probably end up dumping the 4x5. In my opinion, the only thing that the Speed Graphic has going for it right now is the ability to use the myriad of barrel lenses cheaply available for the new LF user. If you're going that route, go Speed before Crown. The shutter *is* worth it, but be sure it works.

As to 5x7...there are many cheaper cameras out there that are functional, though probably not the best you can do if you have more than $200. I have a Burke & James View. It's a little wobbly and you definitely want to get yourself a cable release if you're going to be shooting longer shutter times. It does, however, have a great function to cost ratio. The movements are pretty full, the cost is minimal, and there's plenty of the cameras to go around...though not the reducing backs. (Grr...argh...general displeasure.)

keith,

i shoot most of those formats,
but i might come down
for the crab dip and ham!

all that said
i can understand your frustration about large format.
the camera and lenses and film holders are only one element
of dealing with the format. sheet film can sometimes be difficult to process
especially if you are in a public darkroom.
since you are thinking about 4x5 as your first step, you might also consider
getting a tank or rotary processor. aside from loading it in the dark it is a daylight situation
so you won't have to deal with open trays or scratching your film or hangers and tanks.
like you would for 35mm, you load the film into a tube and then fill it with the chemicals.
it plugs in and you just time it ... it makes you feel guilty at times because you are just leaving
the work to a robot, but it works out well.
i agree with the suggestions of 5x7 ... bigger negative .. everything looks nice in 5x7 .. but
less choice in film &C.

have fun and good luck!
john

Being in Australia I have a limited choice in film, equipment etc...so I can understand where you are coming from.....

When I started in large format I went 5X4 because the film and equipment were easy to get, plus if you buy a Jobo daylight tank then you can easily process the films at home, then print them in any darkroom...also many darkrooms have a 5x4 enlarger, but not many have an enlarger larger than 5x4...

I also have several other large format cameras (5x7 Ansco, a couple of Graflex SLR's - a 5X7 Press and a quarter plate, a couple of old 1/2 plate cameras, 8X10), and use them all from time to time for alternative processes..

However I find I drift back to 5x4 because I can process the films anywhere (I have a Jobo tank, and load it using a Photoflex changing bag)... I can then digitally proof my photos, and when I finally get access to a darkroom I know roughly how I want to print them.....

My advice is get a camera, grab some film, keep it simple, and have some fun!

You have posed questions that will bring endless opinions in response. All of us whom have become involved with large format have probably made good and not so good choices and decisions regarding a camera, lens, film, meter and tripod. I know I have learned over many, many years and am still learning. It never ends. In my opinion, choosing a first LF camera really and truly comes down to two things, what appeals to your sensibilities and what is affordable. I started with a Calumet monorail in college, it used a variety of lenses.. everything from a Zeiss barrel lens in a Packard shutter to a state of the art 150mm Schneider of the day and a couple other lenses as well. I developed my first sheets of Tri-X 4x5 in trays in the school B/W lab. I made my first prints on an old Simmon Omega 4x5 enlarger. It all went well with a few unavoidable screw ups at times but this is how you learn. That hands on method teaches you a lot about equipment and technique that no one can explain to you and that no book alone can teach you. It is totally about hands on learning. Over time your own experiences will dictate what you like, dislike and/or need. In the beginning, keep things simple and low cost. That does not mean you should buy junk. You will need some basics like a solid camera, a decent respectable lens/shutter combo, a solid tripod, sound film holders, a very reliable meter and accessories. The same applies to your lab equipment. There is a lot of choice available to you on the used market at superb price points that can easily meet these needs. Before you plunk down a red cent on a purchase I suggest you rent or borrow a large format outfit and just experiment, get a feeling for things. Learn something, practice it, and repeat that process. Then you will know what direction to pursue about the type of equipment to pursue. After that you can start narrowing things down to brands and models that will fit your budget.

Others mentioned workshops and I think that is a good idea as long as a instructor does not push his or her personal views onto a student. Too often I have seen that happen. It's about presenting information only. Shooting with others may or may not be okay because you can easily pick up bad habits and technique as well as good. What you should focus on is building a solid understanding of the fundamentals. Then the rest will follow as you become more confident and experienced. Check local schools for introductory classes. Go to the library and read as many LF books as you can find, you will learn some things from them. Someone mentioned a Crown Graphic and I think that is a choice but not necessarily the right one. In my opinion, you would learn the most with a monorail rather than a press camera type. You need to learn and understand the relationship of the various movements with a LF camera and a monorail is the only tool that allows you to learn that fully. I have several types of LF cameras and the one I would recommend to a beginner is without a doubt the monorail because they provide maximum capabilities at the best price point (bang for the buck). I would supplement the camera with a copy of Stroebel's View Camera book. Armed with those two items and a decent standard lens with a solid tripod and reputable incident/reflective meter along with a 18% gray card and you are good to go head first into your experiment. I hope you truly enjoy the experience, there is absolutely nothing in photography that can provide such a deep personal experience and ultimate satisfaction in image making than LF work. Enjoy and best of luck.