Where Did the Arrow Go?

Doc W · May 1, 2023

I sacrificed a roll of 120 film recently for demo purposes and while I was demoing, I discovered that the familiar black arrow on the paper backing was missing. I pulled out the roll, since it was already trashed, but no arrow. Not anywhere.

I am a senior and I forget things but I looked at the roll from start to finish. Am I losing my mind and just getting more geezery by the day? Or is the arrow no longer there?

Just for the record, it was a roll of Portra.

quilts · May 1, 2023

Can't be of much help, but I've used Portra in 120 recently (Porta 400 to be specific) and my roll had the black arrow on the backing paper. Were the frame numbers, etc. also missing?

Doc W · May 1, 2023

quilts said:
Can't be of much help, but I've used Portra in 120 recently (Porta 400 to be specific) and my roll had the black arrow on the backing paper. Were the frame numbers, etc. also missing?

Frame numbers were there, but no arrow.

quilts · May 1, 2023

Huh, that's odd. Wonder if a specific batch of backing paper had an issue or something. I can't imagine Kodak would do away with the arrow entirely.

BrianShaw · May 1, 2023

Without a start mark it’s useless in some cameras!

How new/old was the film you used? The 5-year old Portra 160 I used recently had a start mark.

MattKing · May 1, 2023

Are you talking about the start mark, or are you talking about the arrows between the frame numbers, which give one a hint that the next frame number is coming up before it appears in the (usually red) back window?
If the latter, I hadn't really noticed, but they may have been removed as part of recent efforts to minimize ink load and therefore help minimize wrapper offset problems with modern films, modern backing paper and modern inks.

Sirius Glass · May 2, 2023

Without the arrow, how will one know where to start the roll?

mshchem · May 2, 2023

Doc W said:
I sacrificed a roll of 120 film recently for demo purposes and while I was demoing, I discovered that the familiar black arrow on the paper backing was missing. I pulled out the roll, since it was already trashed, but no arrow. Not anywhere.

I am a senior and I forget things but I looked at the roll from start to finish. Am I losing my mind and just getting more geezery by the day? Or is the arrow no longer there?

Just for the record, it was a roll of Portra.

Arrows for the red window??

MattKing · May 2, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Without the arrow, how will one know where to start the roll?

Not all films use arrows as Start marks. Some use dots. I believe that the arrows in question are seen through the window, mid-roll.

Sirius Glass · May 2, 2023

MattKing said:
Not all films use arrows as Start marks. Some use dots. I believe that the arrows in question are seen through the window, mid-roll.

Thanks for the clarification.

BrianShaw · May 2, 2023

Doc W said:
Frame numbers were there, but no arrow.

I haven't had the opportunity (or need/interest) to review the current version of the standard, ISO 732:2000, Photography — 120-size and 220-size films — Dimensions, but in the past the "start mark" was formally known as "Register Mark for Automatic Camera" and specified as a specific distance from the start of the backing paper to the frame #1 marking, with accomodation for film clips used in development. It normative... a required mark with the form (arrow or whatever) being optional. Exposure number marking locations were standardized but here was no requirement for "warning markings" before the exposure numbers. In the last version of the standard that i've seen it wasn't even recommended, yet they are very helpful. The orientation of the exposure numbers was stated as a requirement and specified as an option of the manufacturer.

EDIT: The standard is silent on the use of arrows parallel with the backing paper which precede and align with the various frame number tracks. Hence, there is no specific requirement for them unless htat has been included in a later version of the standard than I have seen. But those arrows seem to be present often enough that they are generally provided for whatever benefit they may offer.

Regarding "warning marks" prior to exposure numbers... I can't recall what Portra used (despite shooting some in a folder camera just a few months ago) but they were present. For warning marks I recall that Ilford uses graduated dots; I think Portra uses the printed word "Kodak". I have memories of constantly missing "1" with old Tri-X because of the orientation of the number and my unfamiliarity with whatever warning marks they used.

Donald Qualls · May 2, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Regarding "warning marks" prior to exposure numbers... I can't recall what Portra used (despite shooting some in a folder camera just a few months ago) but they were present.

The last roll of Portra 400 I shot in a red window camera had "KODAK PORTRA" as warning marks -- don't recall if it had the speed as well, likely not since that would have required two versions of the backing. Now, how old that roll was, I don't recall precisely, but I'm certain I bought it within the past three or four years.

BrianShaw · May 2, 2023

So, here is a reply from Kodak Alaris (it took about 3 minutes to write an email and 30 minutes for Thomas Mooney, Director of Kodak Alaris Film Capture Product Line, to respond):

Thanks for contacting Kodak Alaris.

Below is the standard layout for all of our 120 backing papers. The top track is 645, the middle track is 6x6, and the bottom track is 6x9. The positioning is based on ANSI / ISO standards.

This is a cut & paste, so ignore the red lines. Also, the series of vertical lines along the top track is there for the factory to verify that the film placement is correct (at spooling). The lead edge of the film should fall in the middle.

Hope this helps.

xya · May 3, 2023

Would it be possible to show a photo of this backing paper? I have never seen this.

I went through +40 different rolls of backing paper from all times until back to the 1960s in my lab. I work (also) with expired film. When I load a film into the tank I keep the spool and the backing paper on it an throw it into a box. That's why I have quite some.

They all have the start arrow across the whole width, visible in the red window only as a bar. Then they all have at least one arrow or pointing hand per format. Quite some don't have any further arrows, they use circles, dots or squares leading to the next number. Or sometimes letters such as Kodak.

ant! · May 3, 2023

Not too long ago I messed up a few shots with a 220 film, I think Kodak Portra VC. It was my first 220, and I had lined up the initial dotted line instead of the full line as a start mark. Surprise when I got it back. I think there were even warnings like "don't align to dotted line except for high-performance camera", or something like that. Googled it later, and now I know. So I missed the first 2-3 shots...

foc · May 4, 2023

I found this on Blue Moon Camera facebook page. Hope it may help.

xya · May 4, 2023

For Fuji Acros the important part is missing, it has one arrow for each format as well. The picture is on this forum

Where Did the Arrow Go?

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