When using wt paper, does developer really matter?

noeru · Mar 27, 2020

Hello everyone!
I'm a big fan of warm tones and have been playing with Foma and Ilford WT papers and dev combos. To my eyes it makes literally no difference. I've tried Neutol WA and Fotospeed WT developer at various dilutions and they all seem to get the same tones as when I just use PQ universal. So what's the point of using a WT developer at all? Does it perhaps influence how the paper tones afterwards? Maybe the difference is so subtle it's lost to me?

I should add, one tip I got off another thread and found worked was to overexpose and develop shortly in very dilute dev but that also brings the contrast down so not suitable for everything.

I know I can always tone prints. But I was wondering if there was any way to get amazing colours with just developer, like in Lith prints. I believe this has to do with grain size or some chemical magic.

koraks · Mar 27, 2020

noeru said:
But I was wondering if there was any way to get amazing colours with just developer

Variations in developer alone are not going to give those sorts of wild effects. To achieve that, either toning by itself or lith printing combined with toning is necessary.

To get a feeling for the influence of development, it's best to make some test prints/strips and really compare them side by side (after drying). You'll see that there are differences, but they're subtle. Factors that you can try in terms of variation are:
* Developer dilution (higher dilution = warmer tones)
* Development time (shorter times = warmer tones)
* Addition of potassium bromide (tone shifts to greener/warmer) or benzotriazole (tone shifts to colder)

As you noticed, increasing exposure and reducing development decreases contrast and also tends to limit the maximum black (which often can be restored with selenium toning, which will also affect image color). There are many variables at play and some combinations will give results that please you while others you may find sub-optimal.

But in short, 'amazing' colors with just development, is only feasible with lith (or polychrome, which is basically a kind of divided lith) or perhaps chromoskedasic sabattier printing (which relies on similar principles as lith). Indeed, manipulation of silver grain size is the mechanism that yields the colors.

Ian Grant · Mar 27, 2020

You can get excellent warm tones with Neutol WA, I mix Ilford ID-78 whick is very similar from raw chemicals, but you need short development times or greater dilution, and increased exposure to compensate.

Fomatone Classic MG 131 in ID-78. The old Agfa Record Rapid before reformulation with no Cadmium was capable of very extreme results.

Ian

pentaxuser · Mar 27, 2020

noeru said:
Hello everyone!
I'm a big fan of warm tones and have been playing with Foma and Ilford WT papers and dev combos. To my eyes it makes literally no difference. I've tried Neutol WA and Fotospeed WT developer at various dilutions and they all seem to get the same tones as when I just use PQ universal. .

The differences in WT paper with WT developer are as others have said subtle. Depending on how good your eyes and brain is at discerning subtle changes towards warmth then it is perfectly possible for some people not to be able to tell in the kind of straight development you describe. If it is the same scene on WT paper with WT developer compared to that scene with PQ Universal and you see no difference then No it would appear that WT developer is not worthwhile.

I am not sure if you have tried comparison with WT paper and WT dev with say MGIV/V paper and MG dev If you haven't try it and see then if you see a difference. You might. bear in mind that PQ per se adds some hint of warmth compared to MG developer

If it is any comfort I thought that WT paper and WT developer would give me more warmth as in brownness than it does and I was disappointed like you.

WT paper may well tone in the likes of sepia better than MG paper but the only paper I have seen and then only in a scan of a print that really exhibited unmistakable warmth was from Ian Grant, a contributor to this post. His combination now eludes me but it is in a Photrio gallery I think It was a shot of railway buildings with some railway repair crew. This may give Ian enough clues as to what the print was to retrieve it if he has the time.

If he does and that doesn't qualify as amazing colours then I think you are safe concluding that as MG paper is cheaper you may as well use that unless you want to try the likes of Lith, Sepia and some great combos of toners that certainly do what I think may meet your definition of "amazing"

pentaxuser

Sal Santamaura · Mar 27, 2020

Take a look at this page

https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/galerie/apw/9/lang:en

that includes examples of the long-awaited ADOX Polywarmtone II in various developers.

scheimfluger_77 · Mar 27, 2020

pentaxuser said:
The differences in WT paper with WT developer are as others have said subtle. Depending on how good your eyes and brain is at discerning subtle changes towards warmth then it is perfectly possible for some people not to be able to tell in the kind of straight development you describe. If it is the same scene on WT paper with WT developer compared to that scene with PQ Universal and you see no difference then No it would appear that WT developer is not worthwhile....

This is a good analysis I think. Plus a lot of it may have to do with our preconceptions going in. A side by side comparison of dry prints is a good way to find out.

craigclu · Mar 27, 2020

I struggled getting good, deep blacks on WT Ilford until I tried it in 130 with Benzotriazole as the restrainer. Evan Clarke (sp?) had posted his info on that variant and I found it really brought the paper to life for me. I got rich, velvety blacks that held shadow detail and good overall tonality.

Ian Grant · Mar 27, 2020

pentaxuser said:
WT paper may well tone in the likes of sepia better than MG paper but the only paper I have seen and then only in a scan of a print that really exhibited unmistakable warmth was from Ian Grant, a contributor to this post. His combination now eludes me but it is in a Photrio gallery I think It was a shot of railway buildings with some railway repair crew. This may give Ian enough clues as to what the print was to retrieve it if he has the time.

If he does and that doesn't qualify as amazing colours then I think you are safe concluding that as MG paper is cheaper you may as well use that unless you want to try the likes of Lith, Sepia and some great combos of toners that certainly do what I think may meet your definition of "amazing"

pentaxuser

Not sure where I posted that shot Mike, in threads on another couple of other Forums (UK based). Definitely not here.

Taken on a cross forum Spring meet up 2 years ago 360mm Tele Xenar Wista 45DX, Forte Polywarmtone in ID-78

75mm Super Angulon, Wista 45 DX, both HP5 Pyrocat HD, again Polywarmtone ID78. Royal Mail sorting coach interior.

You've seen many of my prints first hand Mike at the East Midland Monochrome Group meeting and commented at the time on the warmth, I do wrestle more out than most

Ian

Ian Grant · Mar 27, 2020

craigclu said:
I struggled getting good, deep blacks on WT Ilford until I tried it in 130 with Benzotriazole as the restrainer. Evan Clarke (sp?) had posted his info on that variant and I found it really brought the paper to life for me. I got rich, velvety blacks that held shadow detail and good overall tonality.

You don't really want good deep blacks with WT papers that really defeats the object, you need very deep dark browns and richness in the tones. Adding Benzotriazole is killing the WT, you'd be better saving mony buying Neutral tone papers.

Ian

pentaxuser · Mar 27, 2020

Thanks Ian Those are the ones and you are right, it may have been on our U.K. forum. I had a nagging feeling that it was the famous Polywarmtone stuff. Now according to what I understand from Adox this has been replicated so prints like these should be possible with ID78. Sal has given the link to the Moersch examples but none of these come anywhere close to your prints in my opinion but most are toned examples and I cannot work out if the normal developers used are just too far from ID78 or if the new Polywarmtone might not measure up in any developer to give the effect that your prints have

The OP in any case may be looking for colours that are more "amazing " than this but we haven't heard from him yet

pentaxuser

craigclu · Mar 27, 2020

Thanks, Ian... I had a large quantity of WT that wasn't getting used as I felt underwhelmed with the flat sort of results I was getting and this gave me nice, solid results. When I used the term "blacks", I suppose I should have said "dark browns" but tend to think in terms of black & white, I guess. I did lose a bit of the brownish tone but it retained enough to maintain that sort of glow that I like of the less-than cold tone. I would say they had a general coloration of the 2 shots that you posted. I'll see if I can find a scan of something that illustrates my results.

Ian Grant · Mar 27, 2020

pentaxuser said:
The OP in any case may be looking for colours that are more "amazing " than this but we haven't heard from him yet

pentaxuser

Some years ago in the days of news groups some elderly retireddoctor/surgeon asked for help on Toners. I'd done a lot of commercial research at work and offered him help in terms ofwell tested b Formulae (for free) and was amazed how rude he was when replying. Later he wrote a Toner book missing some of the best and most versatile, Chromogenic Toners once sold by Johnsons of Hendon then later Tetenal.

Amzing colours can be produced but these days few by simple development.

Ian

craigclu · Mar 27, 2020

I just remembered that I posted a couple of these in the Konica group here on Photrio. They're just 35mm (55mm and 85mm) naturally but the tones I'm describing show pretty well. My mid-grade scanner is not showing the shadow detail that is evident in the actual prints but it's there when viewing the prints:

images39 · Mar 27, 2020

Could it be that the WT developers are most useful if you want a slight warmth in a neutral tone paper? I tried Neutal WA with Ilford MG a long time ago, and I remember it adding a subtle warmth, which I found pleasing at the time. But it was subtle.

I haven't found WT developers beneficial in combination with WT paper. Selenium toning is what makes the big difference in warmth, at least in my experience.

Dale

pentaxuser · Mar 27, 2020

Those prints are great, Craig. I take it these are the ones from the WT Ilford paper developed in 130(Ansco?) to which Benzo was added? However on my screen they do not really look like Ian's. Much more neutral in tone, I feel

pentaxuser

M Carter · Mar 27, 2020

Sounds like the OP is looking for something less subtle then many of the (very nice) examples posted here... lith printing may be the most straightforward way to get there (if you can even call lith "straightforward"). There are one or two Foma papers that can be developed with lith developer and then given a final bath in Moersch Omega (ammonium carbonate IIRC) for really hot orange tones. the Facebook Lith printing group has many examples.

Here's a couple images and notes:
Lith print on old Agfa MCC, pre-adox:

Lith print on PWT RC - it's capable of tons of color, this is fairly muted:

Here's a toning example, but note how orange the new seagull is before neutralizing and then gold toning - and that's somewhat more subtle than what's available:

And here's old-stock PWT, lith and selenium:

markbau · Mar 27, 2020

Over the years I have worked my way through almost all of the print developers in the Darkroom Cookbook, my conclusion is that the effect of print developer on image colour is massively overstated. I think it is noteworthy that two of the greatest living printers, Rudman and Kenna, use bog standard developers for their work, they get their print colour through their choice of paper and toning. (Rudman does/did Lith work which is a different animal.)
I eagerly await Adox polywarmtone but in the meantime I like what I get from Ilford and Bergger wamtone papers, developing these papers in different developers makes almost no difference nor does adding old, exhausted developer.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 27, 2020

noeru said:
Hello everyone!
I'm a big fan of warm tones and have been playing with Foma and Ilford WT papers and dev combos. To my eyes it makes literally no difference. I've tried Neutol WA and Fotospeed WT developer at various dilutions and they all seem to get the same tones as when I just use PQ universal. So what's the point of using a WT developer at all? Does it perhaps influence how the paper tones afterwards? Maybe the difference is so subtle it's lost to me?

I should add, one tip I got off another thread and found worked was to overexpose and develop shortly in very dilute dev but that also brings the contrast down so not suitable for everything.

I know I can always tone prints. But I was wondering if there was any way to get amazing colours with just developer, like in Lith prints. I believe this has to do with grain size or some chemical magic.

I had the same experience and have the same question.I had the same experience and have the same question.

noeru · Mar 29, 2020

Thanks for so many replies guys. As Pentaxuser suggested, if I'm going to end up toning anyway maybe neutral paper is indeed a better choice but I already went and stocked up on WT before I experimented enough. Oops. I do love the colours in Ian's prints - that's about right for me. So far my wt prints are more like "not cold" than what we see here. I'll try the overexposure and shorter development and see how it goes with the particular papers I have, which are mostly Ilford FBWT and Foma 532. The latter tends towards green which I know many people hate but I actually love - it's certainly no sepia, but I found it tones incredibly beautifully.

In Tim Rudman's book The master photographer's lithe printing course he mentions enriching PQ developer with sodium hydroxide - I've tried it and got nothing like the example he shows. It didn't make any difference at all actually and the stuff is nasty so again, why bother? Maybe it's the paper he used, it's Kentona.

esearing · Mar 29, 2020

with some warm tone papers you can get a browner tone by bleaching the print completely and redevelop in very dilute developer. I have even used Pyrocat HD and Pyrocat M as a second developer after bleach and get a slightly browner tone due to staining effects.

TheFlyingCamera · Mar 29, 2020

What I've found with warm-tone developers on warm tone papers is that the warmth is subtle, but if you do a WT paper in cold tone developer, the difference is glaringly obvious. The cold tone developer will give you bluish, inky blacks with icy white highlights. Warmtone developer will give you warmer highlights and not-blu-ish blacks. I've also been absolutely ruined on the whole warm tone thing by doing a lot of palladium printing in hot Potassium Oxalate (not a trick transferrable to silver printing). Nothing will compare to that short of sepia toning a silver print, or just going full-on albumen on a warm paper base.

M Carter · Mar 29, 2020

noeru said:
In Tim Rudman's book The master photographer's lithe printing course he mentions enriching PQ developer with sodium hydroxide - I've tried it and got nothing like the example he shows. It didn't make any difference at all actually and the stuff is nasty so again, why bother? Maybe it's the paper he used, it's Kentona.

Many of us keep sodium hydroxide around since it's a major component of variable sepia toner; when mixed with developer, it acts as an accelerator. I've had no luck with it, it just seems to turn mids and highs to fog. Someday I may play with it some more, maybe more dilute developer would be a path or more contrast control, but certainly paper will have a big impact on stuff like that. I have lots of lithable paper so I just tried it out of curiosity, I imagine someone's dialed it in or found a useful way to do it. It might be interesting to try it as a toner though, bleach back but hold the shadows, then redevelop in weak or tired paper dev with the accelerator added? You can find some cool/unique looks messing around like that... and many of us have a little more time on our hands with the lockdowns going on!

Tom Kershaw · Apr 1, 2020

By co-incidence I've just revisited this topic in my darkroom today. For comparison and I won't attempt uploads as these are subtle differences in many cases, however:

ID-78 warm "vs" Adox MCC neutral developer (proprietary formula) - with MG Warmtone and MG Classic:

ID-78 (freshly mixed today) used at 1+3 dilution. Very good with ILFORD MG warmtone, and classic.
Adox MCC developer (neutral) - good with MGWT but not as "rich" a result as ID-78.
MCC developer excellent with ILFORD MG classic - and Adox MCC 110 paper , Ilfobrom Galerie etc.

I will do some more printing with ID-78, Polywarmtone (I only have a few sheets), and the Foma papers

Some of my observations today go along with what we already know. i.e warm papers go well with ID-78 and the more neutral papers do work very well with the standard developers like MCC or Multigrade etc. From past experience I wouldn't use a true neutral paper like Galerie with a warmtone developer as you can get odd tone reproduction / curve shape.

I'm not sure where 'Bromophen' from ILFORD fits in with some of these other developers as I happen to have never used the product and have seen conflicting descriptions in the past from - 'similar to D-72 - in results, not formulation' - to use for warmest tones - which is surely doubtful and possibly ILFORD marketing before they introduced their warmtone liquid concentrate, with behaviour very similar to ID-78.

When using wt paper, does developer really matter?

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