When to Dilute XTol?

megamonkees · Jul 28, 2014

Hi! I've found answers to a lot of questions on APUG, but this is one I haven't been able to find an answer to here or elsewhere, so I'll just ask myself:

I'm planning on mixing XTol for the first time today. At what stage of mixing XTol should I dilute it? I plan on diluting 1:1. Does that mean that I mix the powder with twice as much water as I would if I were just making stock, or do I mix stock first and dilute it with water before putting into bottles, or do I mix stock then bottle it and dilute it just before use?

Bonus question: How much can I reuse fixer and stop, or should I mix more working solution before each load of film?

Thanks!

Trask · Jul 28, 2014

I don't use XTOL, but I imagine the protocol is the same as for D-76 or other standard developers -- you'd dilute just before developing the film, so if your tank hold 400ml of developer, you'd mix 200ml stock XTOL with 200ml water and use that to develop the film. Whenever I dilute developer like that, I use it as a one-shot, meaning I toss the used developer. I suppose, in theory, you could try to use it on a second roll if you could calculate the extra time needed to compensate for the developer being partially exhausted from the first roll. My personal concern is that calculating that extra time introduces a possible variable in the process, which could lead to variations in how the negatives are developed.

Regarding the stop and fixer, you should find that the bottle or package indicates the "capacity" to stop or fix a certain number of rolls of film per liter or quart. So yes, you can re-used stop and fixer if you wish, but you should keep a log of how many rolls you run through each and stay within manufacturer guidelines. Losing a roll of film because you used exhausted fixer would be foolish economy.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 28, 2014

You always mix the stock solution concentrate like it says on the package.

Any dilution done for processing at 1+1, 1+2, or 1+3 is done just before actually processing.

The developer lasts a lot longer this way.

megamonkees · Jul 28, 2014

Great! Thanks a lot, guys!

ParkerSmithPhoto · Jul 28, 2014

megamonkees said:
Hi! I've found answers to a lot of questions on APUG, but this is one I haven't been able to find an answer to here or elsewhere, so I'll just ask myself:

I'm planning on mixing XTol for the first time today. At what stage of mixing XTol should I dilute it? I plan on diluting 1:1. Does that mean that I mix the powder with twice as much water as I would if I were just making stock, or do I mix stock first and dilute it with water before putting into bottles, or do I mix stock then bottle it and dilute it just before use?

Bonus question: How much can I reuse fixer and stop, or should I mix more working solution before each load of film?

Thanks!

After making your stock solution, you can dilute it up to 1:3 for film processing. I used it at this dilution for a lot of FP4 and HP5. It works very well, offering excellent film speed (shadow detail) and also seemed to keep the highlights nice and smooth.

megamonkees · Jul 28, 2014

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
After making your stock solution, you can dilute it up to 1:3 for film processing. I used it at this dilution for a lot of FP4 and HP5. It works very well, offering excellent film speed (shadow detail) and also seemed to keep the highlights nice and smooth.

I thought 1:3 wasn't recommended because there wasn't enough active developer for inversion tanks? I'm using a 1L Patterson tank. Also, lots of people seem to think that there isn't a whole lot to be gained from diluting more than 1:1

MattKing · Jul 28, 2014

I wouldn't recommend storing used working strength stop bath. It is a great environment for growing mould.

If you aren't going to be re-using it that day or maybe the next, toss it.

One tip for economy: for most processes, it works fine at twice the dilution, one shot.

And as for capacity, as long as you have at least 100 ml of stock X-Tol per roll of film in your tank, that should be enough.

Where do I get that from? The Instructions : http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

polyglot · Jul 28, 2014

You bottle the stock, not working solution. Try storing it in a mylar bladder; that will exclude all oxygen even as you use the developer up and it lasts a very long time.

Personally, I boil the water before I make up the Xtol to drive most of the oxygen out of solution and make a bag up to just 4L, which reduces the dissolved oxygen by a further 20% because there's 20% less water. When diluting to working solution, obviously you must dilute a bit further to get the correct concentration. Normal working solution for one roll is 100+100mL stock+water; my super-stock has the same amount of developer in just 80mL so I dilute it 80+120 to obtain the same 200mL of working solution.

Make up your stock using high quality water with very low iron content. In some places (like here in Adelaide), the tap water has sufficient iron content to kill Xtol overnight, so I buy drinking water in a mylar bladder (10L bag-in-box) and then use the same bladder to hold the developer.

Your 1L Paterson tank holds how many rolls of film? I'll assume it's 4 rolls, which means you need absolutely no less than 300mL of stock (75mL/roll) and preferably at least 400mL (100mL/roll) . So your max allowable dilution in that tank would be 1+2 (33%) and the preferred dilution would be 1+1 (50%).

ParkerSmithPhoto · Jul 28, 2014

megamonkees said:
I thought 1:3 wasn't recommended because there wasn't enough active developer for inversion tanks? I'm using a 1L Patterson tank. Also, lots of people seem to think that there isn't a whole lot to be gained from diluting more than 1:1

In reality, it was more like 1:2.8 but I never had an problem with it. Did a ton of rolls this way. FWIW I think I'm going back to 2-bath for most of my work.

mklw1954 · Jul 30, 2014

As mentioned by others, mix the stock solution, dilute right before use and do not reuse diluted developer.

For fixer, read the supplier's data sheet on how much you can develop with it (assuming you're using Kodak or another name-brand product that provides this information).

Stop bath is colorimetric - it's yellow and is reused until it looks like it will turn bluish-purple.

Filtering chemicals between uses with coffee filters is good to do.

Sirius Glass · Jul 30, 2014

Use XTOL full strength and replenish. Replenished XTOL gets better with use [improve tonal range], no dilution, and lasts a really long time. Diluting XTOL is delusional.

BetterSense · Jul 30, 2014

Mix it full strength and dilute before using.

I have heard of people mixing the powder up more concentrated than the instructions, either to save space or because they think it will last longer that way.

When I used Xtol, I mixed it according to the direction in distilled water, and stored it in a wine bladder. It lasted over a year with no problems. I always used it 1:1 for economy and loved the results. I think it's probably the best non-pyro developer there is.

megamonkees · Jul 30, 2014

mklw1954 said:
Stop bath is colorimetric - it's yellow and is reused until it looks like it will turn bluish-purple.

Filtering chemicals between uses with coffee filters is good to do.

I didn't know that about Stop. That's handy, thanks!

Just to be clear, is there anything more to filtering chemicals than pouring them from one container into another with a coffee filter in the funnel, or is that it?

megamonkees · Jul 30, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Use XTOL full strength and replenish. Replenished XTOL gets better with use [improve tonal range], no dilution, and lasts a really long time. Diluting XTOL is delusional.

I'm just using a 1L Paterson manual inversion tank. The XTol data sheet has the heading "LARGE-TANK (REPLENISHED) PROCESSING", which is the only time I've heard of replenishing developer. This suggests to me that replenishing only works in a big commercial developing tank, but is that not the case? Can I replenish in a small tank, or does that make it less viable?

Sirius Glass · Jul 30, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
You don't need a big commercial tank. See the last paragraph on page 4 of the XTOL data sheet (Tech pub. J-109).

If you are new to replishment, I suggest learning more about it by reading the replenishment section of this Kodak document:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/o3/o3.pdf

Page 16 has a section specifically on XTOL, but read the whole section.

This is really good advice. I started with stock XTOL. Later I learned about and understood replenished XTOL and have used nothing else.

K-G · Jul 30, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
You don't need a big commercial tank. See the last paragraph on page 4 of the XTOL data sheet (Tech pub. J-109).

If you are new to replishment, I suggest learning more about it by reading the replenishment section of this Kodak document:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/o3/o3.pdf

Page 16 has a section specifically on XTOL, but read the whole section.

Thank you for sharing.

Karl-Gustaf

dehk · Jul 30, 2014

You already got your answers.

And I use 1+2 99% of the time for the past couple years. Looks great.

polyglot · Jul 30, 2014

While replenishment gives excellent results and works with a small tank, it's a feasible approach only if you are developing regularly, more than once per week. If you're a pro lab, it is the absolute best of all worlds in terms of image quality and minimal chemistry consumption.

If you wait much longer than a week between batches, the behaviour of the matured working solution changes in ways that are not easy to predict and you can easily end up with occasional over- or under-development. If you're a typical home-darkroom person who shoots a roll or two per week and develops a batch every month or so, then using your developer one-shot is much more reliable and repeatable. Repeatable development behaviour is a necessity if you want nice, printable negs.

megamonkees · Jul 30, 2014

polyglot said:
If you're a typical home-darkroom person who shoots a roll or two per week and develops a batch every month or so, then using your developer one-shot is much more reliable and repeatable. Repeatable development behaviour is a necessity if you want nice, printable negs.

That's really good to know. Thanks, polyglot. I tend to develop a bunch of film over a few days every month or two, so I'll stick to one-shot for now. If my shooting/developing schedule changes, I'll definitely give replenishing another look. Thanks for the info, everyone

MattKing · Jul 30, 2014

FWIW, I get good results with replenishment and inconsistent film use.

For me, the trick is to replenish the developer weekly, even if I don't develop film each week. It is pretty simple to just pour out 100 ml of developer into a graduate, add 18ml of replenisher to the bottle, and top up the bottle from the graduate.

In my case, I am using HC-110 dilution E replenished, because I still have some HC-110 replenisher.

If I was starting from scratch, I would be using T-Max RS or X-TOL replenished.

polyglot · Jul 30, 2014

To be fair, some replenishment systems don't matter at all for big gaps in usage. I run RA4 replenished and have left my developer alone for 2 months with no issues. I can't speak for what HC-110 does.

With Xtol if you stick a film's worth of replenisher in it every week you're not using it, well it might come out at the right strength or it might come out too strong if you do that a few weeks in a row. And you've wasted several films' worth of developer that you might have otherwise been able to use!

Daily developing though, awesome.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 30, 2014

polyglot said:
To be fair, some replenishment systems don't matter at all for big gaps in usage. I run RA4 replenished and have left my developer alone for 2 months with no issues. I can't speak for what HC-110 does.

With Xtol if you stick a film's worth of replenisher in it every week you're not using it, well it might come out at the right strength or it might come out too strong if you do that a few weeks in a row. And you've wasted several films' worth of developer that you might have otherwise been able to use!

Daily developing though, awesome.

Actually, it's easy to keep Xtol stable. I used the same batch of replenished Xtol for 5 years and it never skipped a beat. I think I ran about 1,000 to 1,200 rolls through what must have been about 20 5 liter packets.
Both concentrate replenisher and working solution sat for six months after my divorce when inspiration was at rock bottom, and I replenished 100ml every two weeks. That's 1,200ml of stock solution. First roll processed after that six month hiatus came out just like the last one before it.

I didn't even mix it with distilled water, just regular old tap water. That is empirical evidence that Xtol can and will work great with intermittent use. Two months ago I started replenished Xtol again after a stint with D76, and it's as sweet as I remembered it.

Sirius Glass · Jul 30, 2014

polyglot said:
If you wait much longer than a week between batches, the behaviour of the matured working solution changes in ways that are not easy to predict and you can easily end up with occasional over- or under-development. If you're a typical home-darkroom person who shoots a roll or two per week and develops a batch every month or so, then using your developer one-shot is much more reliable and repeatable. Repeatable development behaviour is a necessity if you want nice, printable negs.

I do not process film at anywhere near that rate. I will go from a few days or weeks to several months between processing with replenished XTOL and I have never had any of these problems. In fact other than polyglot's statement, I cannot find research or a publication on the internet stating what he has stated. Unless I see some credible documentation of such I consider it to be apocryphal.

mklw1954 · Jul 31, 2014

megamonkees said:
Just to be clear, is there anything more to filtering chemicals than pouring them from one container into another with a coffee filter in the funnel, or is that it?

That's it, quick and simple. I do it on the volume I've measured out for the number of rolls I'm developing.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 31, 2014

mklw1954 said:
That's it, quick and simple. I do it on the volume I've measured out for the number of rolls I'm developing.

What do you gain by filtering? Is it really necessary?

I've been running replenished Xtol for a long time and it accumulates a fair bit of sediment after a while, but it doesn't affect the process at all.

When to Dilute XTol?

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