When is Analog photography not Analog???

Then I and gobs of other members should be banned from your community. Face it. We're taking over and the neighborhood has gone to heck. In your eyes we're the wrong format. The wrong sort to be welcome here. And Bill/agman... you just succeeded in making me and many others feel very unwelcome.

And by the way... I cut my teeth on analog LF when I was thirteen. I lived it, breathed it, and lusted after it throughout my entire puberty. It was my everything. So please don't get puffy about analog to me.

There is a button right there at the top of this page that goes to Hybridphoto.com. Please move the digital discussions there. This thread should be locked,

Steve, I am but a humble solid state physicist, too much of a simpleton to grasp the vast complexities of the photography market and why so many people choose to buy digital products when film is clearly soooo much better and cheaper and better for the soul... <end of extreme sarcasm>

Okay, set that aside :rolleyes:

Let us try to develop an historical perspective. That may bring clarity.

A friend of mine in my department was Jack Mitchell, who passed away not too long ago. Jack was the fellow who modernized the Gurney-Mott theory of photographic sensitivity and presented it at a fully mature quantum mechanical level. Google "latent image." In brief, it turns out that electron and hole migration really matter, and Jack was the guy who revealed that. Through my discussions with Jack, I came to appreciate the many similarities between solid state detection and the formation of the latent image.

Long before CCDs and whatnot, other brilliant people like were thinking, gee wouldn't it be nice if we could get grains all one size and lined up in an array, hmm, and what if we use something like epitaxy to make tabular, flat grains that optimize the surface area presented to incoming photons.... now, what can we do to improve signal to noise ratio? And at the same time there was a military need to get high res images recorded on film from a spy satellite down to the ground. So there was a continuous and incremental advance of very well funded research that led to the development of today's very, very good solid state sensors. These inexpensive sensors, which humble old me uses routinely in his lab, cover spectral ranges from the deep UV well into the IR, and with single photon sensitivity, and at the very highest limits of resolution... even beyond the Rayleigh criterion, in fact. I and almost every other spectroscopist uses solid state sensors for good, hard, scientific reasons. We are not simpletons driven by some market trend. Go back a few decades, everybody in my field was using film.

Now look here! I did not say that some digicam is better than or as good as some film camera, or that one workflow is better than another. Not at all, I think digital sensors have a long way to go and I do appreciate formats larger than 35mm.

Look, people wanted to know at what point analogue isn't analogue any more, and I gave a dry impersonal and straightforward technical definition. There is no pro- or anti-anything in my definition. I share Ron's concerns about aliasing from Bayer sensors etc. And I do film photography for very good reasons. But... people wanted to know at what point analogue isn't analogue any more... and the answer is... ADC.... it's not that silicon is any less noble an element than silver (pun intended), at the fundamental level of quantum efficiency.

I am here at APUG out of love for the A in APUG. Enough said?

Keith;

Very well said.

However, one additional comment is needed here. What do you use as dopants in silicon to get the sensitivity you want? Silver halide eliminated Cadmium, Arsenic, Mercury and Lead and other elements long ago and only use Rhodium, Osmium and Iridium at the present time (with a tad of Gold). Those are used at far lower levels than most other heavy metals (10^-6 moles / mole Ag or less).

Any comments on the heavy metals used in sensors?

PE

Ron, the semiconductor dopants are in very low concentration; an approximate dopant concentration would be 1 atom of dopant per ~1 billion atoms of the host semiconductor. And once the dopant is in, it is very hard to get it out. You have to heat the semiconductor up to a very high temp and then the dopants will slowly diffuse out (zone refining, in a nutshell). So the final product is arguably very safe.

But nevertheless I do definitely share the environmental concerns. The main danger would be in the preparation of the doped materials. Now, that is done, by necessity, in clean rooms with extreme levels of cleanliness. Nevertheless I do share the concern about containing the dangers and there are a number of 'nasties' being used in typical cleanrooms. There are enormous occupational hazards throughout the semiconductor processes. There are silane and germane and HF... just to name a few....

Anyway, just a handy reference graph with some quantum efficiencies...



Those interested in reading more can look here.

rcoda said:

Let me ask you all this. What do you consider this?

Scenario 1.
Original in-camera negative from 4x5 or 8x10" film
Exposure or spotting make the negative impossible to print, but the image is too good to trash
Drum scan negative
Fix defects/exposure in Photoshop
Have output to a new silver negative
Print in darkroom traditionally

Scenario 2.
35mm film negative, sky blownout looking up at WTC, impossible to burn/dodge realistically
Drum scan neg
Fix sky (just give it some tone) in Photoshop
Have file output out to a new 11x14" silver negative
Contact print traditionally in darkroom

Scenario3:
Didn't have film camera with you, but there was an image you HAD to make.
Make the image with your pro DSLR in color, although you pre-visualized it in BW
Work on it in Photoshop, creating a Grayscale version
Have file output to new 4x5" silver negative
Enlarge in traditional darkroom

What would you consider each of these scenarios?

I have done them all. I refuse no tool to get me to final conclusion in the print.

Click to expand...

1 - Analog Photography
2 - Analog Photography
3 - Digital Photography

VERY SIMPLE ~!!

Keith;

Thanks.

One question though. When I short out my breadbords, why do I smell GARLIC?

PE

Haha!

Garlic, let's see, I guess that smell comes mostly from selenium ... got any of that in your breadboard???!

I find that every time I chop garlic, no matter how hard I scrub my hands I smell it the next day.

Actually it is the Arsenic dopant.

PE

Hey Mike

Mike1234 said:

Obviously the arguement here between analog and digital is currently misplaced. This forum began as all about analog therefore we hybrid members are just visitors for now. We must respect that. That said... analog photography itself was, for a very long time, considered too modern... too automated... to different. Perhaps it's time for APUG to shift its focus to include us hybrid outcasts? Time marches forward... technology advances... perhaps it's time for us all to come to an agreement. I've never felt unwelcome here but we're outcasts none-the-less. We're the bastard stepchildren of "real photographers".

Click to expand...

You are so right !!

If these people with BLINDERS on don't get a grip real soon, There will be no where for them to buy there beloved ANALOG FILM.

I have gone over this many times and if you listen to my radio program 99.95% of EVERYBODY is practicing HYBRID analog photography.

Yes there is a HYBRID form... too bad no one is there, its a DEAD ZONE.

There is NO REASON that we should not have a HYBRID forum on APUG.

Right here and right now I will say in PUBLIC that I will SPONSOR and PAY for that forum inside of the walls of APUG NOW $$

So don't take to heart, We are NOT BASTARDS... We are the future of Analog Photography.

!! VIVA DE ANALOG !!

Thanks

Scott

Scott,

I presume you do still acknowledge that traditional darkroom printing has a place?

Tom

:munch:

*YAWN*

Here we go again.

Wack wack wack splat splat splat oh shit! It moved! Hit it again! splat splat splat..... oh wait that was just the gelatinous mass that used to be a horse shaking.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Isn't this a dead issue, yet.

Maybe the Hybrid photo site would not be a dead space if you folks who are whining spent time over there. This place started real small too. And slow.

Photo Engineer said:

Actually it is the Arsenic dopant.

PE

Click to expand...

Yummm! Well at least you won't get syphilis....

Mark I think the real reason why hybridphoto is so inactive is because all the good stuff (artistry etc.) gets discussed here, whereas the really dull stuff (how many ppi should I scan to? what scanner should I buy? scanner scanner scanner....) gets sent over there. Even when somebody here on APUg asks what scanner to buy just to put his or her analogue work into the galleries, the person gets referred over and the thread gets locked. Now pray tell who wants to be somewhere where you just get a constant influx of people asking the same questions about scanners over and over, ad nauseum. Just my take, no offense intended to anyone.

And Tom, I definitely think 100% trad'l has a place.... and this is it. I just lament the sorry state of hybridphoto.

Scott_Sheppard said:

Hey Mike
.... if you listen to my radio program 99.95% of EVERYBODY is practicing HYBRID analog photography.
Scott

Click to expand...

I find your number hard to believe. Far more than .05% of the people practicing analog photography remain completely traditional.

Not that it matters but, to me, analog is film to paper in a wet darkroom.

Personally, I'd like to see this site stay with it's rules. It's one of the only places for pure analog. Digital & hybrid have their own sites, for those interested.
I'd also like to mention (before I get skewered), that there are many photographers doing digital and/or hybrid work whom I respect, and would be proud to hang their work on my walls. I just appreciate the focus, and passion, for pure analog I find here.

Tom Kershaw said:

Scott,

I presume you do still acknowledge that traditional darkroom printing has a place?

Tom

Click to expand...

Hey Tom:

YOU BET it does... BUT in today's environment most people that want to shoot FILM do not have the space, the resources or the time to do 100% analog work flow. I really wish they did, but thats not the case.

Look at what Sandy King is doing...

1 - Shoot on FILM
2 - HYBRID workflow (Scan - Digital Darkroom - Print Negative)
3- 100% complete ANALOG print making process

NOW - Do you call that ANALOG Photography - YOU BET !!

It would be really NICE to make 20 x 24 Negs and contact print from there but thats not reality for 99.95 % of the people on this forum.

Lets look at the Event Market (Wedding etc...)

They shoot 40-60 rolls a gig, on FILM, they they send to a lab and its gets developed the SCANED then printed on ANALOG paper on a DIGITAL printer.

They they tell there clients that they shoot HYBRID ... Hell no. They are 100% died in the wool ANALOG Photographers.

So WHO is using and shooting MOST of the film consumed in the US ??

Event Photographers and they are using a HYBRID workflow. They shoot on film and supply analog print.

I think there people in these forums need to CHILL OUT and just do there own deal and go shoot some film.

Everybody is worked up into a froth for what ???

We all long ANALOG Photography

So no matter HOW you output, If you shoot on FILM or any other old school non electric device, then you are a ANALOG Photographer.

There is no reason that there should not be a place to hang out here with everybody else a forum to talk about there HYBRID workflow.

If they are shooting B&W and they have a B&W question or have found out something cool they want to share with people they should be able to in ONE cohesive place. Not have to go from web site to web site. You know what that will cause ?? they will just say SCREW THIS.. and wont come back !!

APUG need people... LOTS of people and to kick some of them out because they like to SCAN there bloody film is not a very good idea.

APUG needs advertisers and advertisers LOVE eye's - PEOPLE... and if you dilute the forums and send HYBRID users off to LOOSER ISLAND then you WILL loose people.

We as ANALOG Photographers need a ONE PLACE to hang, Not 2, 3 or 5.

** VIVA DE ANALOG **

Thanks

Scott

No. and No period. This forum is NOT the place to discuss computers, scanners, digital backs, or any other techno babble like that.

Personally I work every day with digital stuff--- Seen a Leica M9 --- I have,
Seen the latest 7D --- Guess what-- I have --

But when I come home, I come home to a darkroom and my cameras that I am pleased to say all contain no batteries. I have an entire darkroom that I have built myself, with an 8 ft sink and 3 beseler enlargers up to a 45MX. I DON'T want to talk about digital, I WANT to discuss chemistry and lenses and cameras that take pictures on film.

I am very sorry that the hybridphoto.com site seems to be so dead for you, maybe that tells you something however.

Jeff:

Jeff Searust said:

No. and No period. This forum is NOT the place to discuss computers, scanners, digital backs, or any other techno babble like that.

Click to expand...

There is no reason there cant be or should not be a HYBRID forum inside of APUG to discuss the digital use of a Analog capture.

Jeff Searust said:

Personally I work every day with digital stuff--- Seen a Leica M9 --- I have, Seen the latest 7D --- Guess what-- I have --

Click to expand...

WOW.... So.. I have as shot BOTH the M9 and 7D months a go and products you have not even heard of yet - YIPPIE, I guarantee that I am under WAY MORE NDA's then you are, SO ?? That has nothing to do about this topic.

The TOPIC is that is you capture on a ANALOG material then its ANALOG.

Jeff Searust said:

But when I come home, I come home to a darkroom and my cameras that I am pleased to say all contain no batteries. I have an entire darkroom that I have built myself, with an 8 ft sink and 3 beseler enlargers up to a 45MX. I DON'T want to talk about digital, I WANT to discuss chemistry and lenses and cameras that take pictures on film.

Click to expand...

That's GREAT - COOL

If this was contained in a separate HYBRID forum within APUG then guess what ?? You would not have to see ONE BIT OF IT !!

CHOICE MY FRIEND !!

Jeff Searust said:

I am very sorry that the hybridphoto.com site seems to be so dead for you, maybe that tells you something however.

Click to expand...

Jeff.. It just tells me that people are going else where to discuss these topics and that APUG is loosing out to Photo dot net and the Large Format forums because people on these fine forums are FREAKED out about any HYBRID workflows because they do not understand them or don't have the knowledge and skill set to venture into that area. There is nothing wrong with that.

We as ANALOG photographers need to stick together and have a strong voice with in the photographic community, to express to manufactures what we really want and to show them by BUYING these things.

When people in the current photographic community come to APUG and have ANY INTEREST in HYBRID workflows or film at ALL... you know what they see ?? Ummm ??

They see a bunch of freaks winning about no DIGITAL and guess what they do ?? They say to themselves... WOW these FILM GUYS are WACKED and go buy another DIGITAL camera. What is that going to do to help ANALOG/FILM based photography ??

NOTHING !!!

Maybe KODAK or FUJI or ILFORD will stop selling some special B&W or COLOR film because the ANALOG photographers at APUG, drove the NEWBIES away because they wanted to learn about how cool it is to shoot film and have it processed at Costco or some local mini lab and then scan it and WHO KNOWS... maybe do some contact prints from the DIGITAL negs they made from there FILM images or what ever.

If people here stick there head in the sand any longer... when they PULL IT OUT they mite find out that it was the DAY FILM DIED !!!

If the fine members of this GREAT community don't embrace ANALOG/HYDRID workflows and help others with what they know they will wake up one day and find out all there is to shoot is some film made by the commies that SUCK !!!

So maybe right now we should just start learning WET PLATE so we can be head of the CURVE !!

** A QUESTION FOR EVERYBODY **

1 - SHOOT FILM and do with it as you WANT

or...

2 - Make them HEATHENS head to the DARKROOM and make a print so they can be 100% analog

GUESS WHAT THE ANSWER IS ???

1 - We all win and get to buy great Analog Products for MANY years to come.

2 - Film will surely DIE a SLOW painful death.

The choice is YOURS !!

** VIVA DE ANALOG **

Thanks

Scott

Scott-

If I may interject a bit of historical perspective here. There used to be a Hybrid Forum on APUG. It was spun off into a separate forum because when hybrid subjects had their own forum within APUG, there were more threads discussing things that folks on the forum were not interested in. Often times the subject matter that was best discussed in the hybrid forum would creep out into threads in other subject areas as digressions from the original topic (someone would ask about a thorny dodge/burn problem they were having in the enlarging forum, and a suggestion would get tossed out "why don't you just scan and fix in PS, then output a new neg?"). The decision to spin off Hybrid photography into its own forum was an executive decision made by Sean. If you'd like to debate the merits of that decision with him, I'm sure he would be glad to discuss it with you. In the meantime, could you tone down the SHOUTING in your posts? While we appreciate your passion and dedication, typing in all caps is the equivalent of shouting at a cocktail party.

This topic has been beaten to death so don't have much will to respond.. This same thread seems to appear every few months. I believe the charter is what makes APUG tick and will always stick to it. APUG is here to provide a venue for highly focused discussion on traditional methods. I always hoped this would be a big help to traditional photography and I think it is.. but it's unfair to place the burden of saving the traditional world on one website. That is up to everyone who loves this craft and participates in it not just APUG, it's far bigger than APUG could ever be. I'm happy with the charter and what we do, we do not need to be all things to all people.

Hello Scott:

TheFlyingCamera said:

Scott-

If I may interject a bit of historical perspective here. There used to be a Hybrid Forum on APUG. It was spun off into a separate forum because when hybrid subjects had their own forum within APUG, there were more threads discussing things that folks on the forum were not interested in. Often times the subject matter that was best discussed in the hybrid forum would creep out into threads in other subject areas as digressions from the original topic (someone would ask about a thorny dodge/burn problem they were having in the enlarging forum, and a suggestion would get tossed out "why don't you just scan and fix in PS, then output a new neg?"). The decision to spin off Hybrid photography into its own forum was an executive decision made by Sean. If you'd like to debate the merits of that decision with him, I'm sure he would be glad to discuss it with you. In the meantime, could you tone down the SHOUTING in your posts? While we appreciate your passion and dedication, typing in all caps is the equivalent of shouting at a cocktail party.

Click to expand...

Sorry about the CAPS.... Some time it is all that will get tru to people.

I am sure at the time Sean did what was best for his program. I have offered to pay for a hybrid forum and moderate it.

Myself I would like to see everybody use 100% analog process, but we all know that if we cant help users wanting to use all workflows that have analog capture in them then film will die for sure.

I guess at this point the best thing to do it $$ PAY $$ Ron Mowery to teach us how to make film and then we can go hide in your own little corner of analog land.

Very nice photos on your site by the way !!

Thanks

Scott

Amen, Sean. You have my full support. Even the hybrid social group is too much.

Hey Sean

Sean said:

I'm happy with the charter and what we do, we do not need to be all things to all people.

Click to expand...

Thats cool !!

I will stop my evangelism. Preaching to the choir does no good anyway.

Thanks

Scott

Scott_Sheppard said:

Hello Scott:



Sorry about the CAPS.... Some time it is all that will get tru to people.

I am sure at the time Sean did what was best for his program. I have offered to pay for a hybrid forum and moderate it.

Myself I would like to see everybody use 100% analog process, but we all know that if we cant help users wanting to use all workflows that have analog capture in them then film will die for sure.

I guess at this point the best thing to do it $$ PAY $$ Ron Mowery to teach us how to make film and then we can go hide in your own little corner of analog land.

Very nice photos on your site by the way !!

Thanks

Scott

Click to expand...

Scott-

Thanks for the compliment on my work. I invest a lot of time and energy into it - this is my passion in life, and the primary occupier of my time and money outside the day job. Back a few years ago, there was the big scare that Ilford was going out of business, and the demise of film and paper was imminent. I was just getting back into large format photography at the time, and as a result, I decided to learn alt process techniques so I could keep on using those wonderful cameras I had that were completely analog (notably my large format gear which can't take a digital back). While it's not for everyone, I've gone and learned platinum printing, gum printing, and even wet plate. I'm taking a course in November on making daguerreotypes. All of the above has been an outgrowth of my participation here on APUG.

I agree that anything that can be done to encourage use of wet-process photographic media should be done, and that from a commercial standpoint if someone uses analog media in even a portion of their workflow, everyone else who uses that media also benefits. Markets are markets, and the larger the market, the greater the sales volume for the manufacturer and the lower the cost for the consumer. That said, the market for APUG is only growing. There are now 35,600+ registered members. I can recall only a few years ago (was it 2?) that there were 10,000. I don't think we'd be having that kind of growth if people felt the forum was too specialized or did not meet their needs. APUG would be less successful if it tried to be all things to all people. Look what has happened to the Black & White (UK) magazine as it has changed its focus and style - they have lost readership, and the quality of their content has diminished.