When did the Rollei C-41 kits start using BLIX?

pentaxuser

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Has anyone managed to establish, assuming an interest in it, what is the truth of Freestyle's statement. Is it Rollei who refuse to export the separate bleach and fix kits or Freestyle who has decided not to import them or is there a third party intervention such as government regulations.

I wonder what B&H Rollei kits consist of, are these blix only as well?

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miha

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AgX

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This is a 4th kit by Maco... Maco C-41

Maco offer:

Compard Digibase (Compard is a firm strongly related to Maco)
Compard Digibase Ready To Use
Rollei Colorchem (Rollei is one brand they use)
Maco C-41 Kit (not listed in Germany, maybe old photo?) This photo shows a bottle with Blix
 
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miha

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B&H list it as Rollei.

I'm using Rollei (not Compard) digibase C41, available locally.
 

Rudeofus

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I remember that Fuji had to go through astronomic unit sized lengths of red tape before they could offer their E6 5l kit in the US. For some reason it is next to impossible to sell stuff that's liquid and acidic, such as photographic bleach.
 

lantau

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Rudeofus said:
I remember that Fuji had to go through astronomic unit sized lengths of red tape before they could offer their E6 5l kit in the US. For some reason it is next to impossible to sell stuff that's liquid and acidic, such as photographic bleach.
Click to expand...

Bad news for imports of vinegar...
 

pentaxuser

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lantau said:
Bad news for imports of vinegar...
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True but Rudeofus has a point in that I can see stuff like glacial acetic acid becoming difficult to obtain unless you are "registered as authorised. I cannot speak for the rest of the EU but in the U.K. the recent incidence of acid throwing has given a lot of cause for concern.

The effects of any concentrated acid on victims' is truly horrendous

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lantau

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I believe Rudeofus example was the paperwork you have to do to be able to sell the stuff.

But you are right about the dilemma with UK acid attacks. Are we going to ban everything that can be abused like that? I see no clear answer as both possibilities will have bad consequences. I was able to buy concentrated sulfuric acid by mail delivery.

Some chemicals cannot be shipped to private people. but need to be sold in person so that the trained seller can point out dangers and check if it is appropriate to give it to that person. Similar to pharmaceuticals that can only be sold by pharmacies, even though they don't require a prescription. And for some the buyers need to be entered into a register for each purchase. But I doubt the latter will be all that helpful to find perpetrators in those acid attacks. Many people think that those chemicals that cannot be shipped are banned, though they aren't. You can buy them, if you are lucky enough to have a physical shop that sells it to you within reach. It's quite possible that acids could be reclassified like that. At least it wouldn't be a full ban.

In reality many pharmacists are already very wary to sell some chemicals. It's the fear to be blamed when the buyer does something stupid.
 

AgX

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lantau said:
Some chemicals cannot be shipped to private people. but need to be sold in person so that the trained seller can point out dangers and check if it is appropriate to give it to that person.
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However chemicals brick&mortar retailers have vanished even from larger cities.
 

Rudeofus

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pentaxuser said:
The effects of any concentrated acid on victims' is truly horrendous
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Lots of house hold cleaners, detergents and paints are just as dangerous - are they going to ban these, too? Are they also going to ban car batteries? These regulations are utterly ridiculous and just there to create the impression that something is done to clamp down on these horrific crimes.

Either ways, these are the laws that industry apparently has to put up with, and the price for (or lack of availability of) C-41/E6 kits with separate bleach&fixer shows the consequences.
 

pentaxuser

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I don't disagree Rudeofus but was simply pointing out what may be happening in terms of stronger legislation on acids

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Paul Verizzo

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Just got my 5L Rollei kit from Freestyle yesterday. I've always used Unicolor powders just fine for years, decided to try something different, and where I can mix smaller amounts. Voila, liquids.

It is six bottles, the blix is actually separate bleach and fixer! Concentrated, 2 x 1L bottles to dilute to five liters, 200ml each plus 600ml to make a liter. So why not keep them separate if that's important to you?

OTOH, blix is a well proven method over many years. No, commercial labs don't use it because they monitor and replenish, replacing just the solutions necessary. Not necessary for home use. There was a thread a few years ago, and even PE said that the benefit of separate chemicals was more hypothetical that real world difference. And as we all know, he's a stickler for doing it right.

The Rollei/Compard/Fuji/Digibase kit uses a starter, seven chemicals total.

Looking at all the consumer level products instructions, mixed chemistry life (and capacity!) is all over the ball park. As is proven over and over, it is the contact with air that kills developers, color or B&W. I intend to use canned wine keeping gas with my new darkroom work. Even w/o that, or squeezing bottles, no one ever seems to just put it in the fridge. I've successfully frozen D-76, just fine. No reason that I can think of to not do so with C-41.

There's an old rule of thumb that many chemical reactions double/halve with every 10 degrees C difference. Dropping for 75F to 35F is almost 20C, therefore, 25% of the room temperature rate. If six months of life there, should be about two years in the fridge. Ball parking, here.

EDIT: Almost as soon as I closed my post, I discovered the wheel again. How to separate the blix components and modify them for bleach and fix. Seek and ye shall find: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/converting-c-41-e-6-blix-into-separate-bleach-and-fixer.74/
 
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pentaxuser

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lensman_nh

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The OP did not have wrong information, and someone is missing the point about BLIX and separate bleach and fix. The Digibase kits had separate bleach and separate fixer when mixed, just as Kodak C-41 Flexicolor does. This results in a 4 bath process, dev, bleach, fix & stabilizer.

The current kits Rollei kits available from freestyle, the Colorchem kits, ship with separate fix and beach, but they are part A and B of a blix, not separate bleach and fixer baths when mixed. This results in a three bath process, dev, blix and stab. Heck, the bottles are even labelled Blix part A and B. This is NOT the same as separate bleach and fix as Kodak intended. Search the threads on this if you think otherwise. PE and others have commented on this many times in relation to C-41.

For whatever reason the Digibase kits are not available in the US right now, and to get what I want I'm going to go with Kodak Flexicolor from Unique, thanks to helpful guidance in this thread.
 

Paul Verizzo

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As anyone who has walked around the C-41 home kit landscape for the last ten years knows, the chemistries and brands have come and gone. And sometimes different chemistries with the same name but different years. Fuji minilab stuff repackageda Digibase or is it Compard, oh, wait, Rollei? And brave souls experimenting with Kodak chemicals. Tetenal out of the picture, maybe coming back. And wasn't their Press Kit Unicolor? You can't tell the players without a program!

Goddess bless Unicolor. Same in 1988 or so when I did my first, same as my last, 2015. Consistent, cheapest 1L/1qt available if you want the get your feet wet. I guess it's film, not feet.
 

Rudeofus

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lensman_nh said:
This results in a 4 bath process, dev, bleach, fix & stabilizer.
[...]
This results in a three bath process, dev, blix and stab.
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Just for the record: for whatever reason STAB is not counted towards the bath count, therefore C-41 BLIX kits are called "2 bath", C-41 bleach&fixer kits are called "3 bath", E-6 BLIX kits are also called "3 bath". In many instances E-6 bleach&fixer kits are called "6 bath", although at least for these kits I have seen the term "7 bath" as well.
 

pentaxuser

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So based on the OP the Rollei kits are blix as 2 parts and this is not separate bleach and fixer and on Paul Verizzo's post it is two parts that consist of bleach and fixer which can be used separately or combined as blix. These do not sound compatible so which is it or are both right?

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Rudeofus

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I would seriously doubt, that a kit would offer you the choice of mixing a BLIX or using bleach and fixer component separately. A decent bleach needs a counter anion, for which typically copious amounts of Ammonium Bromide are added. This is especially true for Ammonium Ferric EDTA based bleaches (the thick red ones). These copious amounts of Ammonium Bromide would strongly interfere with fixation, therefore adding Ammonium Thiosulfate to a working bleach won't yield a working BLIX.

There have been reports of people trying to use BLIX part A and part B separately - they all ended up with brown slides. Fortunately you can fix these slides by re-BLIXing.
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks Rudeofus. I was just trying to establish which version(Paul Verizzo or lensman_nh) is correct. They may be speaking of two distinct kits, I suppose. It certainly sounds as if in the kit that lensman_nh speaks of the two bottles are only part A and B of a blix and not separate bleach and fix with the option of being used together as blix or separately as bleach, fix.

Indeed from what you say only disaster awaits anyone who attempt to use the two parts separately

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Mr Bill

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I'm skeptical about blix, as opposed to separate bleach and fix, being a well-proven method for C-41 film processing. That said, I have never tried it, as IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE FOR A COMMERCIAL FILM PROCESSOR. As a note, blix DOES make a lot of sense for PAPER processing.

(I'm gonna get pretty wordy, so this is a good place to quit if you don't wanna know about the technical details.)

I'll explain about this, but first a bit of background. I spent a number of years at a large photo lab in the U.S., overseeing the QC of chemical mixing (including regeneration, etc.), "process control," and meeting effluent standards. To put some perspective on it, during peak times we ran upwards of 5,000 gallons of replenished chemicals per day, albeit the vast majority for paper processing. At one time, back before the coming of RA-4, I oversaw the installation and operation of a developer regeneration system ("operation" consisted of 1) run the used developer through an ion-change column optimized for removal of bromide ion, 2) in our existing chem lab do a full analysis of the treated developer, 3) calculate the chemical additions for the chem-mix department, and 4) screen the regenerated developer for basic parameters, plus an actual processing test before clearing the mix for use). In my department we also worked out and oversaw the processing effluent control schemes, including the most glamorous aspect - monitoring of the sewer effluent for the mandated parameters.

I give this background to counter a common view of internet forums - the syndrome of, "I don't know that much about the topic of xyz, but I DO KNOW who the expert here is, it's so and so..." Forum members should recognize that other expertise sometimes exists.

Ok, regarding C-41 BLIX in the commercial processing world (bear with me, it's a long explanation):

if you run a SEPARATE bleach and fix, the expensive components of the bleach last a long time. It gets "worn out" in three main ways: 1) it gets diluted by the incoming wet film, 2) it gradually loses its ability to bleach (it becomes "reduced" as it "oxidizes" metallic silver, and 3) the bleach's surplus of bromide ion is gradually depleted. Item 2 can be dealt with simply by aerating the bleach. Items 1 and 3 are counteracted by replenishment with a more-concentrated replenisher. (The added replenisher volume means that you will have surplus volume, which will "overflow" from your system; it is possible to collect, and by adding the missing chemicals turn this back into replenisher to be used again.) It is possible to really stretch out the usage of bleach. (You really need squeegees between tanks for the most benefit and minimal effluent load).

Now to the separate fixer: the C-41 fixer, although relatively inexpensive, is more limited in its useable life. We see fixer as "exhausted" when its silver concentration reaches some specific amount - this can be controlled in the process by adding replenisher. Again this will cause a surplus of fixer "overflow," which contains silver. You might think, "hey, I could desilver the fixer, restore it chemically, then reuse it as replenisher. Same as the bleach!" But you cannot. Other byproducts, primarily iodide ion, "poison" the fixer's ability to remove silver. For all practical purposes, the fixer is done - nothing you can do economically to reuse it. (Your best bet, for cheapest fixer and minimum silver lost in the effluent, is to use multistage fixing tanks with "countercurrent flow" replenishment. (And you would ideally squeegee the film as it leaves each tank.) But the bottom line is that the C-41 fixer is very limited in its ability to be reused.

Ok, finally to C-41 combined bleach and fix, aka blix, which again, I have never used. The same situations should exist as for the separate bleach and fix. Except that now, combined, the ability to reuse is limited by the build-up of both silver and iodide (due to the poisoning effect on fixing rate). So, essentially you are not able to extend usage of the expensive bleach because you are limited by the fixer component. If you aerate the blix to restore bleaching power, you will also destroy sulfite ion (it will be oxidized to sulfate), which is essential to protect the fixer, so this is not a desirable thing to do (unless you are monitoring sulfite levels).

If you are a one-time use, then throw it away sort of person, then perhaps C-41 BLIX might be a good way to go; I dunno. I wouldn't want to store it too long, but I don't know what too long is.

A related question comes up with using blix for PAPER (not film). In this case yes, it works great. Two big differences: 1) the bleaching requirement is much smaller (paper has much less silver than film does), and 2) the standard color papers don't seem to have any appreciable iodide content - the fixing rate doesn't seem to be "poisoned." So with paper blix it is possible, in a replenished system, to collect the excess volume (overflow), electrolytically desilver it, aerate it, then "regenerate" so it can be reused as a replenisher. (Don't reuse more than about 80 or 90% of overflow; the build-up of oxidized sulfite (into sulfate) will eventually slow down the fixing rate.) Yeah, I have a great deal of experience with this.

Does anyone who read this far need a summary?
 

Paul Verizzo

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Just to confirm, the Rollei non-digikam/compard/etc. kit uses two bottle to mix into a blix.
 
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