When did roll films begin having the start Arrow?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Mar 8, 2021

First, I want to say I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, so sorry if it's not.

Anyway, I noticed on a couple Verichromes (not pan), that there's no start arrow. So I'm wondering, when did this start to get implemented? I've got a 1946 expired 120 sized plus x, which I'd say would not have one, but what about a 1959 and 1960 120 sized Verichrome Pan?

I only ask because my Yashica Mat 124g and Mamiya c220 require the arrow to load the film properly.
If any super old film doesn't have the arrow, it's probably going through my modified Kodak Monitor.

(also, the old verichromes were 116 (which I bought pre exposed), and a 127 (using a Yashica 44, so I just need the numbers on the back).

Vaughn · Mar 8, 2021

Could you just count the number of cranks it takes to get to an arrow, and use that for film that does not?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Mar 8, 2021

Vaughn said:
Could you just count the number of cranks it takes to get to an arrow, and use that for film that does not?

True, but I have noticed different companies have different lengths of paper.

voceumana · Mar 8, 2021

I suspect, but can't say for sure, that prior to the arrows across the width of the film the lengthwise arrows for the red windows were in place, and might even have had a specific spacing in reference to the start of the film. You might measure some backing papers from various films to see.

See: https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/screen-shot-2018-11-04-at-2-13-13-pm-png.210543/

Vaughn · Mar 8, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
True, but I have noticed different companies have different lengths of paper.

Had not thought of that -- easy to check for future reference when you develop. Personally, I would always screw it up and lose a couple shots probably.

MattKing · Mar 8, 2021

Before I was born.
I'm 64, nearly 65.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Mar 8, 2021

voceumana said:
I suspect, but can't say for sure, that prior to the arrows across the width of the film the lengthwise arrows for the red windows were in place, and might even have had a specific spacing in reference to the start of the film. You might measure some backing papers from various films to see.

See: https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/screen-shot-2018-11-04-at-2-13-13-pm-png.210543/

Interesting, though not fully relevant to my main idea, I have noticed Lomography rolls have the arrow almost immediately at the start.

MattKing said:
Before I was born.
I'm 64, nearly 65.

My 127 verichrome expired in 1951, so it would have been made around 1949- if you were born 1956(?), then it would possibly be sometime after.

MattKing · Mar 8, 2021

Less flippantly.....
Most likely, you need to find a camera that relied upon the Start marker (which isn't always an arrow) to answer your question.
It may very well have originated on non-Kodak film, and on film that originated outside North America.

Vaughn · Mar 8, 2021

Or get a Rolleiflex and not worry about it...

itsdoable · Mar 8, 2021

220 film was introduced in 1965, so it was probably around then. Hasselblad A12 magazine was introduced in 1970, which used the start mark instead on the "1" to line up the first frame.

Grim Tuesday · Mar 9, 2021

itsdoable said:
220 film was introduced in 1965, so it was probably around then. Hasselblad A12 magazine was introduced in 1970, which used the start mark instead on the "1" to line up the first frame.

Pentax 6x7 was introduced in 1969, and used the start mark system. Can we get a 1968?

Edit: Yashica TLRs circa 1958 use the line, so the earliest ubiquitous use was well before that actually

gordrob · Mar 9, 2021

Mamiya Press started production in 1960 and the backs that I have seen from that period use the line so I expect it started well before that

grat · Mar 9, 2021

My Bessa I from 1951-1955 has a start mark, and the manual says to align the two arrows on the film backing.

My 1946 Speed Graphic has a roll film back (the original "23" design with the knob), and it has a start indicator, but I don't have a manual for it. I'm not sure when the back was manufactured.

shutterfinger · Mar 9, 2021

Graflex Graphic 22 and Graphic 23 were made in 1949 and possibly earlier. They use the start arrow across the width of the backing paper. I have a 1949 2x3 RB Series B with an original Graphic 22.

reddesert · Mar 9, 2021

A key issue here is that your old rolls of Verichrome that didn't have the start arrow were 116 and 127 format, not 120. They don't tell anything about when the start arrow for 120 came into being. It is hard to think of a camera for 116 or 127 that doesn't have a red window (even fancy cameras like the Baby Rollei use a red window for frame 1); those formats may never have acquired a start arrow.

As others have said, the Graflex Graphic roll film backs with frame counting wheels use the start arrow and they go back at least to the early post-WW II period. The Kodak Medalist was made during the war and immediately after, but has a red window for frame 1. As far as I can tell from reading manuals, the prewar Rolleicord II used a red window for frame 1 and the post-1950 Rolleicord III uses the start mark. The Mamiyaflex C (introduced 1956) uses the start mark, although it also has a red window. So a guess is that it has to be at least 1950 or earlier; probably earlier since a camera maker would not rely on the start marks until they were in common use.

fs999 · Mar 9, 2021

Vaughn said:
Or get a Rolleiflex and not worry about it...

Or an Agfa Super Isolette

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Mar 9, 2021

Vaughn said:
Or get a Rolleiflex and not worry about it...

fs999 said:
Or an Agfa Super Isolette

I've bought enough stuff with my tax refund/long overdue stimulus checks already.

reddesert said:
A key issue here is that your old rolls of Verichrome that didn't have the start arrow were 116 and 127 format, not 120. They don't tell anything about when the start arrow for 120 came into being. It is hard to think of a camera for 116 or 127 that doesn't have a red window (even fancy cameras like the Baby Rollei use a red window for frame 1); those formats may never have acquired a start arrow.

As others have said, the Graflex Graphic roll film backs with frame counting wheels use the start arrow and they go back at least to the early post-WW II period. The Kodak Medalist was made during the war and immediately after, but has a red window for frame 1. As far as I can tell from reading manuals, the prewar Rolleicord II used a red window for frame 1 and the post-1950 Rolleicord III uses the start mark. The Mamiyaflex C (introduced 1956) uses the start mark, although it also has a red window. So a guess is that it has to be at least 1950 or earlier; probably earlier since a camera maker would not rely on the start marks until they were in common use.

Yes, I have considered that. I will say that I've used a few later 127 films that in fact have the arrow, and I wouldn't expect a 116/616 to have one. Still... I don't want to open my 120 1946 expired plus x until I'm ready to shoot it.

Tel · Mar 9, 2021

The Rollei is the easy solution if you're using 127. In fact, the baby Rollei does not use a red window--it has a tiny switch in the film channel that detects the leading edge of the film and activates the framing mechanism.

DWThomas · Mar 9, 2021

One might suspect the idea would have originated with one of the Big Players which made film *and* cameras, such as Agfa or Kodak. That would account for enough influence to add/edit backing paper markings. It also occurs to me it could be like the 120/620 monkey business, an attempted way to lock a specific film maker to the cameras. All the rollfilm cameras I was acquainted with in the 1950s were red window beasties, and then in the 1960s I wandered into 35mm and sheet film.

urnem57 · Mar 9, 2021

I loved the gloved hand pointing the way. Do any film stocks still have that?

Sirius Glass · Mar 9, 2021

Then all the cameras had red windows. Just wind far enough to know that the film was attached and being taken up, then look for the number '1' in the window. Nothing so complex that the average person could do it.

gorbas · Mar 9, 2021

Tel said:
The Rollei is the easy solution if you're using 127. In fact, the baby Rollei does not use a red window--it has a tiny switch in the film channel that detects the leading edge of the film and activates the framing mechanism.

Correct!

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Mar 9, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Then all the cameras had red windows. Just wind far enough to know that the film was attached and being taken up, then look for the number '1' in the window. Nothing so complex that the average person could do it.

In the event my super old rolls don't have the arrow, I do have two very nice red window folders I can run them through.

Tel said:
The Rollei is the easy solution if you're using 127. In fact, the baby Rollei does not use a red window--it has a tiny switch in the film channel that detects the leading edge of the film and activates the framing mechanism.

Well... I've got the second best option- A Yashica 44. Just need to line the number 1 up in the window and I'm set.

reddesert · Mar 9, 2021

reddesert said:
It is hard to think of a camera for 116 or 127 that doesn't have a red window (even fancy cameras like the Baby Rollei use a red window for frame 1); those formats may never have acquired a start arrow.

Wrong, do more research! I tried to, but not enough - it turns out (according to the Rollei Club website) that the pre-war Baby Rolleiflexes used a red window to locate frame 1, but the postwar Baby Rolleiflex had automatic film sensing like the 6x6 version. Still, don't have an example of a 127 camera that requires the start arrows.

I don't know about the roll of 1946 Plus-X 120, but it's a good bet that the rolls of 1959/60 Verichrome Pan will have the start mark.

xya · Mar 10, 2021

I bought a ensign camera with a roll of ilford fp3 in it. I managed to develop the film and it had 3 grainy photos on it. the sellers recognized a scene in their family from the late 50s. so the film was from the late 50s and it had a start arrow on its backing paper....

When did roll films begin having the start Arrow?

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When did roll films begin having the start Arrow?

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