when can/does manipulation begin ?

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2015

cliveh said:
If you are a believer in Zen photography then manipulation is not something you are conscious of or believe happens or you do, but I accept the arguments by others that one manipulates by framing, angle, timing, etc. But made in Zen space/time this is not dictated by the photographer, but by it, whatever it happens to be. Pure magic

"Zen space/time"?! Beware the kyōsaku, grasshopper...

pdeeh · Dec 4, 2015

Beware the SpaceHopper

Maris · Dec 4, 2015

jnanian;1953819899... this isn't meant to be a debate but a simple unscientific poll ... when can/ does manipulation begin ... ?[/QUOTE said:
It's not about photography. It's about what you mean by manipulation. Explain that and you will, in large part, have answered the question for yourself and for us.

removed account4 · Dec 4, 2015

Maris,
its totally about photography, drawing with light ...

I know what I mean by manipulation,
the thread is about what you might consider to be manipulation

no need for a giant discussion .. hope you visitted the poll.
thanks !

eddie · Dec 4, 2015

For me, manipulation (in terms of photography) is defined as what decisions are made to get a desired response from the viewer. By my definition, the manipulation starts with the format/emulsion/lens/filters/f-stop/shutter speed/framing/etc. chosen, and ends with the matboard/ frame choice. Every decision we make is manipulative. How many times have you been asked why you're photographing something only to be told (when that person sees the final product), "ah... I see it now."?

Hatchetman · Dec 4, 2015

There's manipulation and then there's MANIPULATION if you catch my drift. anyone familiar with that old Kinks song, Lola??

Sean Mac · Dec 4, 2015

An interesting question..

Robert Doisneau was criticised for using what I think can be fairly described as collaborative models in at least one very famous image.

I love his work but the "photo journalist" people were squealing.

To me manipulation starts as the lens cap is removed....

AgX · Dec 4, 2015

darkosaric said:
For me it is most important the intend, do you plan to use manipulation on purpose or not (as a manipulation that you think it is in your definition).

Yes, concerning manipulation that is right, it needs the intent.

But still there is unintended misrepresentation connected to photography. I'm not sure whether John wanted this be included.

Rick A · Dec 5, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
It starts already with the visualization process,meaning even before the picture is taken and that is OK by mebecause,photography is art and the creative process stops when rhe artist says so.Whoever looks for reality in a photograph is delusional!

I agree with this. You absolutely should pre-visualize the finished photograph long before the camera comes into play, then the steps taken are the manipulation to achieve the goal. Which camera, film, developing procedure/developer combo, printing method/paper, etc. all are manipulations.

blockend · Dec 5, 2015

Stephen Gill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzjtb3PS-CI

DWThomas · Dec 5, 2015

Hmm - it appears I'm among the overwhelming majority (out of the tiny fraction of 1% sampling! ) that think manipulation begins before the shutter button is pushed. I can think of an occasion or two when it started a day or three before I brought photo gear to the subject!

Maybe it's really about manipulating the future viewer. :confused: And maybe in my own case some of it is not even a conscious process.

So there.
:munch:

markbarendt · Dec 5, 2015

DWThomas said:
Hmm - it appears I'm among the overwhelming majority (out of the tiny fraction of 1% sampling! ) that think manipulation begins before the shutter button is pushed. I can think of an occasion or two when it started a day or three before I brought photo gear to the subject!

Maybe it's really about manipulating the future viewer. :confused: And maybe in my own case some of it is not even a conscious process.

So there.
:munch:

Kinda like, "I'm going to the beach with the kids this weekend it would be nice to get a family portrait in front of Haystack Rock, I'll need a longer than normal lens to make Haystack rock cover more of the frame, i'll need a self timer and tripod to be in the picture myself, I want morning sun on the family and the rock, ..."

I have planned (manipulated) the outcome a bunch and I'm just getting started. Heck I've ruled out my 4x5 because I only have a 150mm lens and ...

MattKing · Dec 5, 2015

"Manipulation" seems to have acquired a negative connotation.

It shouldn't have. IMHO, a manipulation is only negative if it is intended to falsify something, and if that falsification is for a negative purpose.

If, like Jerry Uelsmann, you manipulate to intrigue and fascinate, there is nothing negative at all.

If, however, you manipulate to mislead or obfuscate, and you have an ulterior motive, then the manipulation is negative.

Sirius Glass · Dec 5, 2015

Matt, well stated.

Ko.Fe. · Dec 6, 2015

I manipulate camera, I manipulate enlarger, then under it and after it.
If it is a problem for some, I highly recommend instant camera with fixed focus.

Dwayne Martin · Dec 6, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
It starts already with the visualization process,meaning even before the picture is taken and that is OK by mebecause,photography is art and the creative process stops when rhe artist says so.Whoever looks for reality in a photograph is delusional!

i agree completely Ralph. I once heard a photographer say if you want to see reality go ride a bus.......

pdeeh · Dec 6, 2015

Devorobin said:
a photographer [said] if you want to see reality go ride a bus.......

... From Helsinki bus-station perhaps ?

when can/does manipulation begin ?

when

before

after

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