when can/does manipulation begin ?

removed account4 · Dec 3, 2015

in a recent thread it seems this is the heart of the argument.
some believe that manipulation can't or doesn't begin until after and exposure is made
others believe that manipulation can take place through camera controls a photographer has at
his or her disposal ---
framing/composition/physically altering a scene/fstop use ( DOF ) long or quick exposure/camera movements amongst other things.

this isn't meant to be a debate but a simple unscientific poll ...
when can/ does manipulation begin ... ?

Vaughn · Dec 3, 2015

In the end it is just a matter of how one wants to define the word "manipulation'.

removed account4 · Dec 3, 2015

couldn't agree with you more vaughn !

Sirius Glass · Dec 3, 2015

Since you agree, why have the unscientific poll?

gzinsel · Dec 4, 2015

manipulation begins at birth? . . . . . .( both literally and metaphorically), every action taken in life, changes things, so. . . . WTF!!!!! I think someone who distinguishing between manipulated and non manipulated images is very naive! ITS ALL MANIPULATED!!! thats why its called art!!! its a trick, a ruse =!! a gimmick, slide of hand. ..etc. . . . Look at AA, all his work is trick after trick, BUT THATS WHAT COUNTS. if you do not know how to trick someone YOU ARE NOT AN ARTIST!!!!! IF you do not KNOW how to CON someone, YOU ARE NOT AN ARTIST!!!!!

Ian Leake · Dec 4, 2015

It depends on what you are manipulating.

If you're manipulating the scene in front of your camera, which arguably is exactly what photography is about, then manipulation starts in camera and finishes with a finished print. It's a continuum.

But if you're manipulating something else then it starts somewhere else.

darkosaric · Dec 4, 2015

For me it is most important the intend, do you plan to use manipulation on purpose or not (as a manipulation that you think it is in your definition).
Documentary / Journalism: no manipulation should be used on purpose.
Art work: no limits (just see early works from Robert and Shana ParkeHarrison --> they used Hasselblad camera ).

Ghostman · Dec 4, 2015

It's all interpretation, from end to end.

pdeeh · Dec 4, 2015

I feel manipulated by this poll.

Dwayne Martin · Dec 4, 2015

I feel the entire process is manipulation from beginning to print....

Peltigera · Dec 4, 2015

darkosaric said:
For me it is most important the intend, do you plan to use manipulation on purpose or not (as a manipulation that you think it is in your definition).
Documentary / Journalism: no manipulation should be used on purpose.
Art work: no limits (just see early works from Robert and Shana ParkeHarrison --> they used Hasselblad camera ).

So a journalist mustn't aim their camera? Or decide when to press the shutter release?

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megzdad81 · Dec 4, 2015

I turn a 3-dimensional scene into 2 dimensions, and then I use (most often) a yellow filter. And for those who have been arguing about cropping in camera or during printing, I often find a part of the image that should be dominant (I use 2 L-shaped mats, black & white) and I crop the crap out of it for the final printed image. Some times I burn the edges but I also burn a lot of paper getting the right amount, so I don't do it often. Then I decide how it's going to be matted and hung on my Wall of Shame (so named because the amount of money behind those 20 images results in a shameful cost per print.) Sometimes my little brain sees something that makes me take the picture but hasn't let me know at the time of the click that it's really treasure buried with that attracted me. Sometimes I think something is manipulating me to the right or wrong place--I can feel it physically, like a sharp intake of cold air--a gasp. Then I have to try manipulate it all the way to the Wall.

So, yes, I unashamedly manipulate from beginning to end because that damn gasp feels so good when it happens.

I feel largely unsuccessful ... whatever force is driving me has not taken my forgetfulness into account.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 4, 2015

It starts already with the visualization process,meaning even before the picture is taken and that is OK by mebecause,photography is art and the creative process stops when rhe artist says so.Whoever looks for reality in a photograph is delusional!

darkosaric · Dec 4, 2015

Peltigera said:
So a journalist mustn't aim their camera? Or decide when to press the shutter release?

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That is why I wrote "as a manipulation that you think it is in your definition": for me pressing the shutter and aim the camera is not manipulation. As usual - misunderstanding often comes from:

- the same thing is called in two different names/definitions
- the different things are called in same name/definition

edit: when it comes that everybody has his own definition - to be able to find common language (otherwise on forum it is hard to go forward) I like to start from wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo_manipulation

removed-user-1 · Dec 4, 2015

Peltigera said:
So a journalist mustn't aim their camera? Or decide when to press the shutter release?

+1000! Yep, even aiming the camera, or choosing which lens to use, counts as manipulation.

Much of the time in modern usage, the word "manipulate" carries a negative connotation, such as "psychological manipulation" or "card manipulation" (i.e., cheating). That is, that manipulation is always underhanded, somehow. But at its core, all the word really means is "use your hands to do [something]."

Peltigera · Dec 4, 2015

darkosaric said:
That is why I wrote "as a manipulation that you think it is in your definition": for me pressing the shutter and aim the camera is not manipulation. As usual - misunderstanding often comes from:

- the same thing is called in two different names/definitions
- the different things are called in same name/definition

edit: when it comes that everybody has his own definition - to be able to find common language (otherwise on forum it is hard to go forward) I like to start from wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo_manipulation

When you aim your camera, you are deciding what to exclude from your picture - that is no different in terms of ethics or integrity to using Photoshop to remove something.

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DannL. · Dec 4, 2015

I see manipulation as beginning the moment you press the shutter button, and ending when the print is hung on the wall and the cork has been removed from the bottle of Cava.

DREW WILEY · Dec 4, 2015

DITTO

BAC1967 · Dec 4, 2015

The problem with photo journalism is the photographers are hired, paid and praised for their work based in part on artistic merit. So are they not being praised and scorned for manipulation of some sort.

markbarendt · Dec 4, 2015

darkosaric said:
For me it is most important the intend, do you plan to use manipulation on purpose or not (as a manipulation that you think it is in your definition).
Documentary / Journalism: no manipulation should be used on purpose.
Art work: no limits (just see early works from Robert and Shana ParkeHarrison --> they used Hasselblad camera ).

I agree with the intent being the start. For me that intent is in mind before I even think about what camera.

As to journalism, I see it as pert near impossible to take a photo without doing some composition, in effect deciding what to put in a photo and what to leave out. Isn't that decision a manipulation? (I'm not suggesting any attempt to deceive should be made.)

bobwysiwyg · Dec 4, 2015

DannL. said:
I see manipulation as beginning the moment you press the shutter button, and ending when the print is hung on the wall and the cork has been removed from the bottle of Cava.

Have to disagree that it begins the moment you press the shutter button. If you so much as use a filter, you are engaging in manipulation. So I guess I go with "from beginning to end."

DannL. · Dec 4, 2015

bobwysiwyg said:
Have to disagree that it begins the moment you press the shutter button. If you so much as use a filter, you are engaging in manipulation. So I guess I go with "from beginning to end."

Yes, but adding filters, choosing film, configuring the camera, etc, is all just preparation. If you choose not to trip the shutter after all of that, nothing has happened (image wise).

ic-racer · Dec 4, 2015

When the 3d-object is projected as 2d.

cliveh · Dec 4, 2015

If you are a believer in Zen photography then manipulation is not something you are conscious of or believe happens or you do, but I accept the arguments by others that one manipulates by framing, angle, timing, etc. But made in Zen space/time this is not dictated by the photographer, but by it, whatever it happens to be. Pure magic

Sirius Glass · Dec 4, 2015

pdeeh said:
I feel manipulated by this poll.

+ 1

when can/does manipulation begin ?

when

before

after

removed-user-1

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