When all of the used film cameras are gone...

BMbikerider · Jul 15, 2018

So much has been said about cameras, but nothing about the lumps of glass we attach to the front. I use two makes of 35mm camera, Nikon's and Minoltas. Whilst the supply of Nikon manual lenses or even AF primes are relatively stable at the moment, they are becoming fewer and if you want a good example you pay a premium price. Have you seen the recent asking prices for a good 135mm F2.8 AIS lens? I think for my present needs I have all I can wish for considering the type of photography I do.

However with Minolta, the situation is markedly different. I have two of the rarer camera bodies (XM and an XE1) in perfect electrical and mechanical order, but getting good prime Rokkors is a bit of a struggle. Ignoring the MD lenses which I feel are not as good as the all metal MC versions, although I may be pressed into using them eventually. Good ones, (both MC and MD) with no traces of fungus are now getting as rare as hens teeth. My most recent purchase a 28mm F2.5 whilst optically as good as new, still requires attention for a lazy iris. Although the XM and XE1 are fully functional, I am looking out for a good couple of SRT 303 bodies as a backup.

Even what was probably the most numerous lens fitting - world wide - the M42 are nowhere so common as they once were.
I think I also subscribe to the theory that a large number of film cameras/lenses are stored in boxes in lofts all over the globe with the false understanding they are valueless and not even worth putting on E Bay.

David Brown · Jul 15, 2018

BMbikerider said:
So much has been said about cameras, but nothing about the lumps of glass we attach to the front. ...
getting good prime Rokkors is a bit of a struggle. ...
the M42 are nowhere so common as they once were.

They haven't simply disappeared, there are just fewer for sale because of the fad of using these lenses on mirrorless cameras. This, too, shall pass.

MattKing · Jul 15, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
I've heard handmade film called "crap." ==> I would not know because I have never used it. I would think that someone makes quality handmade film. PE even wrote a book on how to do it. Didn't Matthew Brady use homemade and tentmade film?

I've seen Denise's (dwross) handmade film and it is quite impressive in its high quality.
And her methods seem to require the same sort of skills that darkroom work (and a bit of kitchen work) requires.

Berkeley Mike · Jul 15, 2018

Pentode said:
I'm not 100% sure where the OP is going with this. We're talking about an elective film program at a school. That suggests that the students are electing to shoot film.
Perhaps many are electing it simply out of curiosity while only some are already dedicated to shooting film. Those that are already dedicated have probably already figured out that their gear needs to work.
Those that are just dipping their toes in the water don't yet have any point of reference. Why would they?

I have to assume that the course curriculum would want to stress the differences between digital and film photography.
Wouldn't the content of the curriculum also want to stress the importance of keeping one's equipment functional? In fact, wouldn't that be equally important in an all-digital program?
It seems to me that the OP is lamenting the students' disinterest in maintaining their own equipment. These are values that need to be addressed in the classroom.
If the students don't know any better, how will they understand the importance of maintenance? They've grown up in a disposable society. They don't yet understand the idea of longevity.
If film photography is being offered as a course, part of that course should involve the importance of being self-sufficient and keeping one's gear in order.
Perhaps the course description (which, I assume, also lists required materials) should recommend that any camera used in the course should get a CLA. Many textbooks cost more than $125.

Just my opinion, of course!

I am not asking for input on the program; this is definitely NOT about the academic program. There have been some useful ideas floated however. See post #13.

The program was simply used to make the point that if you look at a fleet of machines and a large body of users, a larger sample of machines and users than most shooters experience, you come to see how they fail. (Others in the community such as Camera shops, repairers, clubs and such have this larger view as well). That done, it got me to thinking about the greater community and the exhaustion of cameras, and what it might mean. So I asked the question, asked for opinions, even predictions, from the users on this site.

DREW WILEY · Jul 15, 2018

The problem won't be lack of existence of usable film cameras, but the difficulty finding them under the hundreds of tons of disposed digital cameras, computer components, and smartphones that did become obsolete in a short period of time, and already amount to mountains of landfill. It will be like finding King Tut's tomb beneath the sand dunes, "I see things, wonderful things".

Paul Howell · Jul 15, 2018

If I were to bet, I would bet that Ilford, Foma, and even Kodak may at some point need to step in and have cameras made. Even the larger corps like Nikon, Canon and Pentax will make films cameras if there is a demand. We are not close, there are still so many used cameras out there, until the supply is depleted there is no demand.

Arklatexian · Jul 15, 2018

Paul Howell said:
If I were to bet, I would bet that Ilford, Foma, and even Kodak may at some point need to step in and have cameras made. Even the larger corps like Nikon, Canon and Pentax will make films cameras if there is a demand. We are not close, there are still so many used cameras out there, until the supply is depleted there is no demand.

What will happen is the same thing that caused the manufacture of the existing used film cameras, demand. If there ism no demand, there will be no new cameras. Someone (hopefully a rich "someone") will bite the bullet and "gag" buy new ones. If no one does, kiss this hobby "goodbye", get you some paintbrushes, and paint pictures (or houses) With some, in this group, the idea of someone making a profit is unpopular but without that "profit" motive there wilt be no new cameras, any time, any where. When? Maybe 2030 or later, (WA guess)......Regards!

Sirius Glass · Jul 15, 2018

DREW WILEY said:
The problem won't be lack of existence of usable film cameras, but the difficulty finding them under the hundreds of tons of disposed digital cameras, computer components, and smartphones that did become obsolete in a short period of time, and already amount to mountains of landfill. It will be like finding King Tut's tomb beneath the sand dunes, "I see things, wonderful things".

Do a search on the internet for a local place to buy film and the search engines will bury you with listings for stores that only cater to digital photography.

Berkeley Mike · Jul 15, 2018

This is really great!

BrianShaw · Jul 15, 2018

Berkeley Mike said:
This is really great!

For you maybe. I feel a bit used. This kind of thread that asks questions but don’t seem to have much reciprocal participation is quickly becoming something I’ll be ignoring. I’m glad your happy but I feel (collectively) like I’m just getting my brain picked with little mutual benefit. But that’s okay... it’s the way of the internet and I’ve, so far, voluntarily participated. I just felt a need to let you know.

eddie · Jul 15, 2018

I think manual cameras will be around for a long time. Parts can be cannibalized, tinkerers will figure out repairs and, I think, 3D printing will play a part in introducing new designs.

guangong · Jul 15, 2018

The end of the supply of used cameras reminds me of the imminent end of the supply of petroleum.

Paul Howell · Jul 15, 2018

Arklatexian said:
What will happen is the same thing that caused the manufacture of the existing used film cameras, demand. If there ism no demand, there will be no new cameras. Someone (hopefully a rich "someone") will bite the bullet and "gag" buy new ones. If no one does, kiss this hobby "goodbye", get you some paintbrushes, and paint pictures (or houses) With some, in this group, the idea of someone making a profit is unpopular but without that "profit" motive there wilt be no new cameras, any time, any where. When? Maybe 2030 or later, (WA guess)......Regards!

There is no demand because of the still large inventory of usable used cameras. Once those cameras are gone there will be market for a new camera. Ilford and Foma will not just pack up and close shop without a fight. The market will be small, but world wide, someone will make a profit. It's not that they need to reinvent the 35mm camera. Backwards engineer a Nikormate, Spotmatic, K1000, the patents are now expired. It a matter of tooling and assembly.

Berkeley Mike · Jul 15, 2018

BrianShaw said:
For you maybe. I feel a bit used. This kind of thread that asks questions but don’t seem to have much reciprocal participation is quickly becoming something I’ll be ignoring. I’m glad your happy but I feel (collectively) like I’m just getting my brain picked with little mutual benefit. But that’s okay... it’s the way of the internet and I’ve, so far, voluntarily participated. I just felt a need to let you know.

Brian, I apologize for leaving you hanging. I never gave a moment's thought. I really don't know what we will do if/when we run out of cameras. I have plenty of opinions around this issue but I did not want to contaminate the input. I thought I'd let people run with this, interact with each other, and get an unaffected take.
I plan to let the weekend play out and then change my participation.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 15, 2018

No more film cameras ==> heat death of the universe

Kino · Jul 15, 2018

I think we will be long gone before film cameras are all gone,so take heart in living in the age of film...

BMbikerider · Jul 16, 2018

David Brown said:
They haven't simply disappeared, there are just fewer for sale because of the fad of using these lenses on mirrorless cameras. This, too, shall pass.

Which must prompt the response that if they are using them on digital cameras, then that must surely speak volumes on the quality on the older lenses. New is not always better may be very true.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 16, 2018

The older lenses are popular on micro-4/3 mirrorless digital cameras, which have an APS-C sized sensor. The center and perhaps 2/3 of the image circle formed by the lens is what the sensor is going to see; edge sharpness, aberrations, etc. in the image won't ever be seen by the sensor. So, the older manual lenses are prized more for their quality in the central 2/3 of the image they form.

Europan · Jul 16, 2018

When all of the used film cameras are gone I shall present my new film motion-picture camera. I have been wanting to build it for many years but am not well off enough to do so. It’s got a, how can I put it without being boastful, revolutionary design. 35mm, four-, three-, and two-perf. advance, novel finder, interesting optical possibilities and features. Business partners are welcome. One never knows, it might perhaps work via this forum.

macfred · Jul 16, 2018

RalphLambrecht said:
... my body will need more help than my camera bodies.

A realistic assessment - I'm quite sure my 'mechanical' cameras will survive me ...

dwross · Jul 16, 2018

MattKing said:
I've seen Denise's (dwross) handmade film and it is quite impressive in its high quality.
And her methods seem to require the same sort of skills that darkroom work (and a bit of kitchen work) requires.

Thank you Matt. I haven't met many APUGers in person, but I'm very glad you are among them. It's always an inspiration and boost to talk with people who love, and understand, photography and its history. Best to you and your wife, and great fun on your photographic journey. d

Cholentpot · Jul 16, 2018

Someone will put out a digital camera that replicates the feel of using a film camera. Film advance and all.

ekkybedmond · Jul 16, 2018

Isn't the Canon 1V not for sale anymore ?

AgX · Jul 16, 2018

Canon recently sold out their last stock.

Paul Howell · Jul 16, 2018

Here in the US a large thrift store chain has an online auction web site, Shopgoodwill.com I filtered for Minolta, there are currently 169 35mm for sale. Range from fixed lens rangefinders to MD mount to A mount. The price range started of course at entry level to mid point, $5.00 to around $12.00 although in the past I have seen pro level gear dod see any pro level bodies this time around. Goodwill can is pricy as shipping and handling are added on the wining price. But there are plenty of camera still on the used market. 10 years ago there were many more as folks were moving from film to digital. Remember this is just one web site, one brand, I did not count Pentax, Nikon, or Canon, not to mention Miranda, Petri, Mamyia or Kowa. If you are running a film photography glass, get a solid reliable all machinal camera, Spotmatic, Minolta 101 or 200, Nikormat, Canon FTB, get a few used handheld meters, teach sunny 16, then pick up a few lens, wide to short tele and you are good to go.

When all of the used film cameras are gone...

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