What's your approach to CLA?

I have never owned so many old cameras before (I now have five). As I've been growing my collection, I avoided deals where a camera required a CLA, i.e. something was obviously off, like a sticky shutter or lenses with fungus and haze..

All my cameras are fully operational and I sort of adopted "no CLA needed unless something is wrong" approach, but recently I realized that's not how I treat used cars, for example. With cars, you do some preventive maintenance, especially if you just bought one, to avoid problems in the future.

On one hand, the used car analogy makes sense, on the other hand cars are designed to be maintained and maintenance is a part of a user manual. I do not see cameras be designed to be frequently opened up, and repair/maintenance manuals aren't even included and historically have only been available to authorized repair centers.

I also do not know what the original design parameters were. Did Rolleiflex engineers really expect their cameras to be fully functional 60 years later?

So... on a spectrum from "if it ain't broke don't fix it" to having a list of regular maintenance items every N years, what's your approach to CLA and camera maintenance in general?

I've sent almost all my Leica and Leica clones in for service if I plan to use them. Most had "dry sounding" shutters and I know they will quickly wear out to where a CLA won't fix them if used this way. I sent one Rollei in that was a little stiff winding, the others still feel/sound smooth so I'm OK using them as is.

This is good food for thought, I'm also interested to hear what others say. I've also taken the "CLA only when something is borked" approach. Sometimes, I even keep using a camera despite things that don't work properly, like avoiding certain shutter speeds I know are problematic...

My experience has been primarily with twin lens Rolleis, of which I have had more than I can count. They have ranged in age from 45 to 65 years. When I get one, I go through a series of checks to determine whether any service is needed. In particular, the transport without film should have virtually no resistance, all shutter speeds and self timer should run strong without any hesitation, 1 second should be 1 sec, not 1.5 or 2 sec, and the shutter release should bounce right back after firing. If there is a fail on any of these tests, it suggests to me that their are dried or gummed up lubricants at least, and the camera goes off for a CLA. Of all of the Rolleis I have owned, I would guess that 80-90 percent needed to go off for service when I received them.

In general, once properly serviced, I don’t expect to have to CLA again for quite a number of years, basically not until I see one of the telltale signs that I refer to above. But as a general matter I am picky, and it bugs me to have a camera that isn’t more or less 100 percent in function. And even if the camera works, I do not want dirt or dried lubricants to hasten wear.

I fix copiers and many years ago we used to do preventative maintenance and many times after one was done the customer would call back and say the tech was just here and now we have a problem and it was working fine before he came. Anytime you are taking something apart to clean or adjust you run the risk of creating a problem. I have customers call all the time saying the copier has a squeak and I try to explain to them that a squeak will not cause a breakdown and nearly all the time it stops squeaking by the time the tech gets there. There are so many moving parts you just can't spray WD 40 on everything because if the toner gets into the oil it makes things worse. So if there aren't any obvious problems and I can use the cameras function for 90% of time I save the money for much more needed repairs.

With two cameras from the 50s or thereabouts, I purchased them from reputable dealers who CLA'd and replaced bellows before I purchased them. Yes, this leads to a more expensive camera, but cameras that work wonderfully well. On the other hand, a 4x5 Linhof Technika is presently in for CLA and bellows/ground glass replacement of the camera, as well as CLA of 4 lens and range finder adjustment of three of the lenses. In all, the work will exceed the cost cost of the camera and lenses by a small margin. However, I fully expect these these cameras to serve me well for decades.

There is no free lunch! I'm not sure what 90% of a functioning camera is? Shutter speeds are a bit off? It only captures an image 90% of the time?

For newer cameras that I have - in the 20-30 year old range (gasp!) I don't have them CLA'd if they are working properly. As all of the newer cameras have electronics, I can't say what their future will be. I can say that fully mechanical cameras that I have - despite their considerable age - will functionally out live me.

The body and bellows exterior should be cleaned regularly with a conditioner to keep the leather or leatherette from drying out. Storage condition (display) will determine the frequency.
The inside of the camera should be dust free and cleaned any time debris/dust is noticed.
Shutter speed tolerance is 1/3 stop either side of the marked speed. Pro's using their cameras regularly have the shutter serviced when the speeds are 1/5 stop off.
1 second tolerance is .8 to 1.2 seconds. The 1 second speed uses the full mechanical movement of the speed timing, 1/15 or 1/25 second, depending on shutter, utilizes a different tension on the timing pallet and this speed will be off before others.
While watching the sweep second hand of a watch or clock set the shutter to 1 second, set, release as the second hand reaches a minute/second mark. The shutter should open fully, remain open then close just as the second hand reaches the next minute/second mark. Set the shutter to 1/2 second and repeat the set (cock), release. The shutter should open then close just as the second hand reaches the mid point between the starting mark and the next mark. Now turn the speed dial to the next higher speed, cock and release, until you have reached the highest speed. The speeds should get progressively faster. Once at the fastest speed cock and release then turn the speed dial down to the next slowest speed and repeat the cock/release until back to 1 second. The speeds should become noticeably slower.
If the shutter is erratic have it serviced.

I've only learned of C.L.A. with the emergence of internet forums on photography some 20+ years ago.

My approach is to get them cheap and service myself, half the fun.
Use to pay for servicing but was too expensive and long waits are a pain and constant "hows the service coming along" gets old.....and in the end I think I do a better job.
You can quickly over capitalize paying someone to service a camera.

I agree with Jeff above. I have had most of my cameras cleaned and adjusted by whoever has been highly recommended as an expert in that brand of camera (in USA). No surprises I want them to work.

Working professionals used to regularly have their cameras serviced, like CLA. OTOH, working professionals used to put more film through a camera in a year, than I might in a decade, or maybe longer, and if the camera died on them on a job, it was bad news.

Cars have wear parts and consumables to a much greater degree than cameras, so they aren't a good prescription.

When I started, as an amateur, I didn't worry about this kind of regular maintenance. But I have more old cameras now and most things are 30+ years older than when I started. For example, in 1990, if I bought an SLR lens from the 70s, I wasn't concerned about sluggish aperture blades, but now it's something I immediately check for (both that the lenses are much older now, and they may have been sitting unused for the last 20 years).

When I get something, in addition to the obvious stuff like "does the shutter fire" I check for basic functions: light seals, bellows leaks, does the shutter run smoothly and how correct are the times, does the aperture stick, does the light meter work and how does it compare to a known good meter. I also check the focus - does the focus move smoothly, does the RF or focusing screen agree with the focus scale for a target at a known distance. If there is some potential issue I can check focus with a groundglass on the film rails. I just did that for a TLR that obviously had the lenses slightly loose and appeared to be out of adjustment, for example.

I have rarely had a camera that got worse from my using it (apart from my first SLR whose mirror-up mech failed). I have had a few things that got worse from sitting around.

I balance the need for repair with the criticality of function and likelihood of repair. For example, if all the speeds of a leaf shutter are off or sticky, I'll try to clean it (I have decent luck with this), but if it's only the slowest speed, or something relatively marginal like the self-timer, I may not bother. This is perhaps what someone meant by "90% functional."

Thank you for those who responded! I am currently checking the shutter speeds on my older lenses, I found this iPhone app (which I'll try later tonight). How else would you check the accuracy? I was also thinking about recording the shutter sound, looking at the sound wave in DaVinci Resolve and comparing the time stamps of the peaks. How else would you do it?

I've only sent a few cameras off for CLA, and that was because there was something specifically wrong with them (both 35mm, a Retina IIIC where the shutter wouldn't close on slow speeds, and a Minolta X700 that was capping at 1/1000). I always run a test roll through newly acquired cameras to see if anything is obviously off. I don't avoid CLAs (and will probably start sending LF shutters in one at a time), though some repair persons do charge more that I am willing to pay. Thats their right, as my choice to patronize or not is mine. But in the end, when the CLA costs twice what the camera does, I usually decide that its good enough, or that the camera doesn't matter to me that much.

Also, while I have a lot of cameras acquired at some point or another (like most of us here), most of them aren't being used much, if at all. So in the end, there is only about six or seven cameras that I use frequently enough for me to care, and all of them work perfectly (for my purposes.) I'd sell them, but i really don't want to deal with the online selling headaches.

I do CLAs when necessary.

my baseline is when buying a piece of used equipment. get it CLA'd. so there is a baseline.

Leaf shutters make many sounds so its impossible to tell what sound is what even when watching the recording and seeing what sound peak is the blades opening and closing.
I use an IR LED at the rear of the shutter with a light source in front of the shutter. Incandescent or other high red content light source is needed. Recording is with Audacity https://www.audacityteam.org/

I have used a Phochron shutter tester in the past, but recently I find shooting a grey card with enough light to be able to shoot at the highest shutter speed wide open and then each speed slower/f-stop smaller and looking at the end result is accurate enough for me. All the frames should match, or come very close to matching.

shutterfinger said:

I use an IR LED at the rear of the shutter with a light source in front of the shutter. Incandescent or other high red content light source is needed. Recording is with Audacity https://www.audacityteam.org/

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Sorry I'm slow today. The above reads like you're recording IR light with an audio recorder? The reason I was thinking sound is because it can be sampled at a higher rate than video.

I am personally partial to mechanical cameras and I have kind of assumed that the primary reason to have any of them serviced would be to ensure the shutters continue to work properly. I know that other things can go wrong but these problems usually arise in coordination with high shutter use. At least that has been my theory.

With that in mind I purchased a shutter speed tester a few years back. I test the shutter speeds on my primary cameras (definitely not all of them) about once per year so I am building a record of their shutter speeds over time. If the shutter speeds begin to vary by more than 15 percent I consult with a service tech that I know I can trust.

I also track how many rolls of film I have fed through each camera so I have a rough idea of how many shutter actuations the camera has. The one Leica I sent in for service was approaching 50,000 actuations (a tad over 1,000 rolls of film) so I kind of assumed that it was time for a tuneup. I have a second Leica that will be approaching that number in the next couple of years if I continue to shoot film at this rate. There are some of my cameras that get a lot of use. My Leica cameras are definitely not shelf queens but they seem to hold up pretty well to heavy use and the dusty environment they are forced to work in. For this reason I don't mind begrudge their high prices nor do I mind having them serviced regularly. There aren't many mechanical 35mm cameras available new anymore and none that are being built to this level of quality. Perhaps the Nikon F6 is close, but it is definitely not mechanical.

However, I own a very large number of cameras that are used infrequently (two or three times per year) and I typically don't have these serviced in any way until they actually break. Even then the decision to go for service is often dependent on the cost that will be incurred.

My most reliable cameras have been my Leicas which get very heavy use), my Pentax LX, my Pentax K1000 (30+ years), my Zeiss Contax III (my first rangefinder), and my Rolleiflex and Zeiss Ikoflex II (both of which have both been real workhorses.) I suspect the Rolleiflex will need some attention with the next couple of years since I am approaching 800 rolls of film in that camera this year. I love my Zeiss Ikons as well but one of them needs to have the rangefinder recalibrated. I haven't sent it for repair yet but I believe Zeiss is still servicing them. The second is still running strong so it hasn't been terribly important to get the first repaired.

One of the cameras I have been quite surprised with is my Pentacon Six. If you believed everything you read on the interwebs the Pentacon is a disaster, but that certainly has not been my experience. I really do believe it was intended for professional use by its' manufacturer. With the exception of an occasional film transport issue, usually caused by not keeping the film tight enough when loading, it has worked steadily and very reliably for over 5 years since I had it serviced. I do not use nearly as much medium format film as I do 35mm so I expect this camera. like my Leicas, will probably run longer than I will.

Another couple cameras that I haven't mentioned, but really should are my Pentax 645Nii and my Pentax 645. I have regularly used both of these cameras for over ten years and neither of them has had one single problem in all that time. The shutters have stayed amazingly accurate over the last 5 years (since I started measuring) and though they both need 6 AA batteries every time I change them, I do not begrudge that need. I really don't use them as much as I did in the past because I have become partial to the square format over time but they are true diamonds for anyone who is interested in the 6x4.5 format. Though they have not needed service I suspect that, much like my LX, the electronics in these cameras will not be serviceable in a few more years, if that hasn't happened already.

Pieter12 said:

I have used a Phochron shutter tester in the past, but recently I find shooting a grey card with enough light to be able to shoot at the highest shutter speed wide open and then each speed slower/f-stop smaller and looking at the end result is accurate enough for me. All the frames should match, or come very close to matching.

View attachment 252006

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Yep, that's my current method and I am trying to devise something faster and more convenient.

Bormental said:

Thank you for those who responded! I am currently checking the shutter speeds on my older lenses, I found this iPhone app (which I'll try later tonight). How else would you check the accuracy? I was also thinking about recording the shutter sound, looking at the sound wave in DaVinci Resolve and comparing the time stamps of the peaks. How else would you do it?

Click to expand...

I have used the Shutter Speed app. It makes a sound recording and allows you to zoom in and identify the peaks associated with open/close, so I don't think doing that yourself would be much different. The app developer also sells a little plug with a photo-transistor that plugs into your phone so you can record light not sound. I don't have the plug, but it's not very expensive.

Once you try a few shutters it is usually pretty clear what the open/close peaks are in the sound wave (each shutter is a little different), but you have to be aware of the limitations of the sound version. If there is a lot of noise going on, like an SLR, it will be useful only on the slower speeds. It does better on leaf shutters, but it won't work well faster than about 1/125 because you can't separate the open/close peaks from the ancillary shutter noises. I wouldn't expect it to work at all on curtain shutters faster than the sync speed. Nevertheless it is very useful, and nice that the developer made it free.

If I knew I could get something CLA'd with decent turnaround time, I'd be far more likely to do it. Given that my gut feeling is that sending something off for CLA means it sits on a shelf for a few months before getting worked on, I avoid doing it unless something is actually broken.
Kinda wish there was something like a "FastPass" for CLA, where I could put my name on a waiting list and then not have to actually send the gear in until I knew I'd get it back within a week or two.

Not sure how real this problem is, but I really don't like being without my equipment for an unknown length of time.

shutterfinger said:

Leaf shutters make many sounds so its impossible to tell what sound is what even when watching the recording and seeing what sound peak is the blades opening and closing.

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Most of mine make distinct enough sounds as the shutter trips on the open, and on the close, that you can get a reasonable approximation, especially if you use a cable release.

You're right that you won't be able to judge how fast the shutter is opening or closing, because that will almost certainly get lost in the sound of the clockwork, but visual inspection will show if they're dragging. One of the advantages of film is that a small percentage isn't going to ruin a negative as a rule.

I do suggest sampling at 96khz though, with something like Audacity.

Since early 1960s I have acquired quality equipment so in order to maintain value and keep operational I try to avoid costly repairs and surprise failures by doing periodic CLA. A CLA is cheaper than a repair, especially since some camera parts are in short supply. When I buy used equipment, even if functioning perfectly, I always factor in a CLA as part of the total purchase price.

I've been testing leaf and large format focal plane shutters, no 35mm shutters.
Back in the dark ages of the internet while film was king search engining Shutter Speed tester resulted in a simple photodiode diagram that is easy to make if you know how to solder. By the time I became interested the phototransistor had joined the Dodo and was replaced bu an IR sensitive LED. The IR LED is sensitive to light at the red end of the light spectrum and infrared light. Mounting said LED in a piece of foam core with a hole about half the size of the diode for the light to enter through and a piece of red filter gel equivalent to a #25 Wratten filter over the light opening and an incandescent light source such as a 40 watt appliance light bulb in a portable fixture or a AA MiniMag flashlight set to focus a circle at 2 inches work well. The light source needs to be within 3 inches of the photo LED. For leaf shutters I mount a piece of foam core with a hole cut to just fit over the shutter's mount threads onto the piece of foam core with the photo LED so that the photo LED is at the center of the lens cell opening with the aperture wide open. I place the light source at the front of the shutter, cock and release the shutter for each speed. The photo LED is connected to a phono plug and is attached to the microphone jack of the computer. Audacity is an audio recording/editing program. When reviewing the recorded audio the time line can be expanded as desired. The start of the LED seeing light causes a peak above the zero line which remains until the LED no longer sees light. Measuring from the instant light is seen until its no longer seen is the shutter speed or the time the shutter blades were allowing light through the shutter. The average response time of the LED is .00005 second.
Being shirt pocketable stupid high speed switch machines with Alexander's nuisance device app have become the predominant go to with an app for everything short of wiping one's posterior many of the parts and sources of procurement have disappeared but some of these more current links may be of interest https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=diy+shutter+speed+tester
Most microphone jacks supply +5V so an external battery may not be needed.
Two LED tester rear, front, shutter adapter, shutter mounted on adapter with test LED centered on the shutter opening, Audacity, speed cropped.

Audacity noise-shutter speed spike-noise; speed cropped shutter speed start-shutter speed end- LED bleed down.
This shutter is running between 1/125 (.0056 - .0104, .008 nominal) and 1/150 (.00467 - .00867, nominal .00667).

10k ohm resistor connected to collector(s) to shield or ground, emitter(s) to mike plug +. Reversing the leads results in the spike going below the zero line or lower spike height.