What's wrong now?

winger · Mar 24, 2014

I've been using this Hasselblad off and on for several years and I bought it secondhand. I know it could be time for a CLA, but I haven't had any non-user-caused issues until now (unless this one was me, too). The attached frames are in the middle of the roll and I didn't feel anything different at the time. I'm fairly sure it's 3 exposures in the space for 2. Initially, I thought it was 4 in the space for 2, but I think Ken stepped into the shot for one and that he isn't his own separate shot. But I didn't notice anything weird when it happened.
Is it likely to be the back or the body or the connection? And it worked fine for the four shots after these (I don't think I've used it since?). Of course, these are the only ones with the tulips this way and they were the ones I really wanted. Murphy strikes again.

snapguy · Mar 25, 2014

I have not seen any Iowa tulips since I lived there in the 1950s. They look very nice. You may have invented the successor to Lomo. I'd call it Tiptoe Thru The Tulips With Ken. That, or your film advance is retarded.

chip j · Mar 25, 2014

I had the same thing happen w/a Nikon (don't know which one, but it cleared up)

Kevin Caulfield · Mar 25, 2014

I have several Hasselblad backs and occasionally one suffers from uneven spacing. My worst ever scenario was just mild overlapping of two frames. Usually it's just spacing variability. You probably need to get your film magazine serviced.

Tom1956 · Mar 25, 2014

You did not mention what model you have. But the body itself can't do anything to cause this. Is the back easy to shift around and wiggle when it's on the body? I ask this to eliminate the body entirely, and simply have the back worked on if money is tight. There isn't a whole lot that can cause this film advance failure, and it's pretty limited to the back, not the body. On an EL series, a back can jam and actually skip teeth as the camera winder runs. This will be accompanied with a frighteningly violent partial separation of back and body that can strip the gear teeth pretty easy.

Pioneer · Mar 25, 2014

Wow, I have not been to Pella or Orange City since I was a kid! I have a few around the house but they are barely out of the ground yet.

Sorry, that was a bit OT.

It would seem that your film was not advancing as anticipated. Not a Hassy fanatic but if it were happening to me I would switch backs to see if the problem continues.

Dr Croubie · Mar 25, 2014

If your frame spacing was uneven for the whole roll, that's more than likely just a loading problem.
But just for a few frames mid-roll? That's weird.
I'd be suggesting something like a 'missed' gear-tooth or two. Is the back a bit loose on the body, and could it have come slightly apart to miss a tooth just for those frames?

winger · Mar 25, 2014

Tom1956 said:
You did not mention what model you have. But the body itself can't do anything to cause this. Is the back easy to shift around and wiggle when it's on the body? I ask this to eliminate the body entirely, and simply have the back worked on if money is tight. There isn't a whole lot that can cause this film advance failure, and it's pretty limited to the back, not the body. On an EL series, a back can jam and actually skip teeth as the camera winder runs. This will be accompanied with a frighteningly violent partial separation of back and body that can strip the gear teeth pretty easy.

It's a 503cxi and I have two backs. Of course I now have no clue which was used for this roll. I think I shot the roll around a year ago, too. I get to the B&W much faster than the color. Anyway, the back that gets more use isn't really loose, but the other one is totally and completely snug, so maybe that's it? Though the not so tight back isn't really shifting around; it just isn't perfectly still. All manual, no motor winder added.

Guess I'l try to remember to use the other back more and hope it doesn't happen again? I'm also going to guess that since the roll is fine before and after the issue that it's not necessarily going to be an easy one to find and fix unless it's a known problem.

Tom1956 · Mar 25, 2014

No, Winger. It's typical for backs to be a bit shifty as you wiggle them. Very few I've seen are totally snug. So that's not it. But even though I haven't worked on a 503 yet, there's no clutch in the body-it is direct gear drive, with little probability of slippage in the body itself. What I am getting at is, if you are happy with the clarity of your pictures at infinity, and the back barn doors are closing properly, a non-pro would do well to keep the body out of the hands of repairmen. Quality repairmen are getting harder to find, and some boob could get the chassis length all fouled up, ruining your infinity. The body is not the culprit here, so don't have it fixed by some independent, when it wasn't broken in the first place.

Tom1956 · Mar 25, 2014

If I had my choice of which back of the 2 is most likely to slip frames, I'd pick the tight fitting one, on account of shell-to-shell contact actually pushing gear teeth shallower in their mesh.

gone · Mar 25, 2014

What Kevin said. You should mark the backs w/ notches at the film gates to know which back you had film in. Everything related to this is in the back, so it can't be the body.

Douglas Fairbank · Mar 25, 2014

No need for guesswork. Get a film that you can spare and a pencil and load it normally, leave the lens of the camera and press the release and hold the camera open so you can look into the camera and see the film surface. Now use the pencil to mark around the frame edge, release and advance the film and do it again until you have marked all the frames. Now you can take out the film unroll it and see your spacing. But we have not finished yet, re-roll the film and put it through for a second or third pass to see how consistent it is, even put it through the second magazine to see how they compare.
You may find that the drive clutch in one of your magazines is slipping, it will need a service (CLA).

Tom1956 · Mar 25, 2014

Douglas Fairbank said:
No need for guesswork. Get a film that you can spare and a pencil and load it normally, leave the lens of the camera and press the release and hold the camera open so you can look into the camera and see the film surface. Now use the pencil to mark around the frame edge, release and advance the film and do it again until you have marked all the frames. Now you can take out the film unroll it and see your spacing. But we have not finished yet, re-roll the film and put it through for a second or third pass to see how consistent it is, even put it through the second magazine to see how they compare.
You may find that the drive clutch in one of your magazines is slipping, it will need a service (CLA).

I've done this lots of times. It is an excellent procedure that can catch dirty culprits flatfooted with their pants down. I learned that trick working on Rapid Omegas, which are clutch-drive advancing.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 25, 2014

I used Kiev 88 and I was very happy with it , better than all my Leicas at my hand. But all frames was needed to hand crancked from the back side winder. I was opening the small window and crancking the winder until I see 2,3,4..

I read at that forum some fashion photographers were buying hasselblad new , shot ten thousands of frames in short time and selling them. These cameras are cosmetically fine but back to camera connection gear turned to a used car tire. Look at that gear and check it is still sharp or weared. May be it would be cheaper to pay for repairs when knowing what to order for service.

Its not a big deal , sidewinder is your friend if there is any at modern copies. You can not beat the lens and every transfer to toyota is a big loss.

bdial · Mar 25, 2014

Could be loading errors...

Are you sure you wound to the first frame when loading? Not doing that can result in somewhat similar results, though, as I recall, you usually end up with a partial at the first exposure, a lot of funky spacing with some overlapping, then the last frame is well before the end of the roll. I've used Hasselblads for years, and have done that a few times, the most recent was a couple of weeks ago.

You also don't need to have the arrow on the film very far off from the mark in the back to generate weird spacing, including overlaps. A few degrees is sufficient.

Some folks file notches into the edge of the film gate in the back to ID the backs.

Xmas · Mar 25, 2014

Hi Winger

You need to test both backs and hope it is not an intermittent problem. It is pretty easy to missload a blad when in a hurry.

Noel

winger · Mar 25, 2014

Douglas Fairbank said:
No need for guesswork. Get a film that you can spare and a pencil and load it normally, leave the lens of the camera and press the release and hold the camera open so you can look into the camera and see the film surface. Now use the pencil to mark around the frame edge, release and advance the film and do it again until you have marked all the frames. Now you can take out the film unroll it and see your spacing. But we have not finished yet, re-roll the film and put it through for a second or third pass to see how consistent it is, even put it through the second magazine to see how they compare.
You may find that the drive clutch in one of your magazines is slipping, it will need a service (CLA).

I'll give this a try. I definitely have some "extra" film around.

There is a chance I misloaded the roll, but the first 6 frames are fine and the last 4 are fine. The only problem is with the shots I actually wanted. Usually when I misload these (oh yeah, BTDT), I lose the entire roll 'cause it just doesn't catch at all. I know I wound to the first frame and that the arrow was lined up at the start. I'm never in a hurry when I load this camera.
And there is a good chance it was the tighter fitting back that did it 'cause I tend to use that one for color and the other for B&W.
Is there a chance that it was due to the camera sitting for awhile between the 6th frame and the first of these messed up ones? I'm fairly sure that was the case as I really don't use the Hasselblad that much (and have considered selling it, but it is really sweet when I do use it).

Thanks all!!

Jim Jones · Mar 25, 2014

Aw Bethe, are you sure it was an accident? Some would call it great art. Crop it a little, print it, and hang it on your wall. But please, don't do as Snapguy suggests and title it "Tiptoeing Through the Tulips with Ken." If his military service goes back as far as my Navy years, he might not appreciate it.

winger · Mar 25, 2014

Jim Jones said:
Aw Bethe, are you sure it was an accident? Some would call it great art. Crop it a little, print it, and hang it on your wall. But please, don't do as Snapguy suggests and title it "Tiptoeing Through the Tulips with Ken." If his military service goes back as far as my Navy years, he might not appreciate it.

I think the part he'd like the least is that the part showing is mostly his belly. But I might see how it looks with a little non-Apug work. And though his Army service goes back to the late 80s, I doubt he'd like the title (but I'm almost scared to ask what he would title it with his wit).

Maybe it's just a sign that I should use the camera more?

StoneNYC · Mar 25, 2014

Bethe,

This is what I think happened, you accidentally didn't quite catch the film in the taking real, and when you got excited because you knew you had that really great shot you advance the film much faster than you normally do, that extra speed in advancement caused a little slipping to happen and so of course the frames your most excited about where the ones that you put the most quick pressure on and that probably made those frames slip well the others that you advanced more slowly did not and so that's probably what happened.

Since you said you've shot a lot of film sense and you've had no issues even if it was black and white it doesn't really matter obviously you shut more film in it since, I would say that this is most likely the reason, and that it isn't the back itself or you would've seen this happen again.

Just some thoughts

Tom1956 · Mar 25, 2014

No, Stone, I think post #12 by Douglas Fairbank has put the definitive procedure out there. A Hasselblad Electric, for instance does not "get excited". It just advances the film in a very unapologetic way with a lot of torque. Granted Winger's camera is a manual advance.
What she needs to do is sit down with both backs, a roll or 2 of junk film, various writing instruments, whether they be different color sharpies, ball point pen, grease pencil, whatever. And start running film, tracing the frames at the film gate. Try not to go past exposure 10 or it will be harder to find the film end point as to where to start on the backing paper to roll it back up.
Anyway, run the fil through 5 or 6 times, roll it back up and do it again. As you roll the film back up, it will bunch a little at the taped end. pull up the tape and reset it--it won't be a lot. After 5 or 6 passes, something should be starting to give a clue as to which back is not playing nice. GL

Truzi · Mar 25, 2014

I once had an unhappy accident with the double-exposure lever. Any possibility that may have been the culprit?

Sirius Glass · Mar 25, 2014

Time for a film back CLA and you might as well replace the light shields.

Tom1956 · Mar 25, 2014

I'll agree with you Sirius--just send out both backs for service. But I've also noticed on these forums how easy it is to help somebody else spend a pile of money on these things.

winger · Mar 25, 2014

Truzi said:
I once had an unhappy accident with the double-exposure lever. Any possibility that may have been the culprit?

Not sure mine has one?? (yes, I have no problem admitting I don't know the camera well and have never seen or looked for an instruction manual).

Stone - this was probably the last roll that went through the back - I really don't use it much. And I doubt I got excited enough to wind it that fast. It was definitely on the reel fine 'cause the first 6 frames are fine.

The more I think about it, the more I think that sitting for awhile (no clue how long, but likely months at least) was part of the culprit. The first double is a little past the first frame (which would have been wound to that spot directly after the 6th frame) and then the other is further past and the rest are fine. As soon as I have a chance, I'll sit down and check them out with some old expired film I have. If I send them out for CLAs (which wouldn't be a bad idea anyhow), who should I send them to?

What's wrong now?

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