What's with Kodak film pricing?

Ken Nadvornick · May 11, 2015

Old-N-Feeble said:
Regarding Kodak bulk film costing more...

If more people bulk-loaded their film the cost would go down. Apparently, bulk loading has lost favor over the last several years so sales have dropped. Therefore, price per foot increases.

Current bulk rolls of 35mm film at Freestyle

Only the Kodak rolls are seriously out of line from the general price points, which range from US$41 to US$79 depending on the specific product. Kodak's three offerings range from US$92 to $US142, or approximately double.

Note that the Kodak offerings are now being discounted. This may be an attempt to move them before they expire, since their sales have likely dropped waaay off at those inflated prices. Apparently bulk loading of Kodak films has indeed lost favor. For obvious reasons.

As I said earlier, I expect the discontinuation notice to cite a lack of customer demand...

Ken

Ricardo Miranda · May 11, 2015

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
If new film is too much people can have patience and buy expired or slightly expired from here or elsewhere and stock up their freezer. The days of pros dumping their freezers full of film and getting it for $1 a roll on eBay are gone (and are in MY freezer!) but you can still get it for 20-50% less than buying new fresh film.

Nice one!
When the factories close because they couldn't wait for you to buy their "expired" film, don't get upset.
They just couldn't wait for you. They had mouths to feed as well.

Which part of "we're closing this line due to low demand" some didn't get, yet?
Does it cost more now? Tough, we are in a recession, everything is more expensive and not enough people are buying fresh film and using it regularly.
If 50% of the western world population bought a roll of film per week, Koda prices would fell.

Pioneer · May 11, 2015

Ken Nadvornick said:
Current bulk rolls of 35mm film at Freestyle

Only the Kodak rolls are seriously out of line from the general price points, which range from US$41 to US$79 depending on the specific product. Kodak's three offerings range from US$92 to $US142, or approximately double.

Note that the Kodak offerings are now being discounted. This may be an attempt to move them before they expire, since their sales have likely dropped waaay off at those inflated prices. Apparently bulk loading of Kodak films has indeed lost favor. For obvious reasons.

As I said earlier, I expect the discontinuation notice to cite a lack of customer demand...

Ken

Likely. A roll of Ilford HP5+ is $55 and a roll of Kodak Tri-X is $86.

Tri-X is nice but I don't know if it is that much nicer.

Maybe Ilford users buy more film in bulk?

He says as he orders another roll of Tri-X.

Sigh...

removed account4 · May 11, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
Nice one!
When the factories close because they couldn't wait for you to buy their "expired" film, don't get upset.
They just couldn't wait for you. They had mouths to feed as well.

Which part of "we're closing this line due to low demand" some didn't get, yet?
Does it cost more now? Tough, we are in a recession, everything is more expensive and not enough people are buying fresh film and using it regularly.
If 50% of the western world population bought a roll of film per week, Koda prices would fell.

you have said the same thing to me before too ...

if the stores are selling it as short date or expired film ( they have already purchased it )
they will buy more ...
are you suggesting the landfill is a good place for perfectly usable film to end up ?

unfortunately many of the landfills are getting FULL of things that shouldn't be thrown out anyways.
and i have gladly remove expired film or short date film from the waste stream, just as i will gladly
do my best to remove silver from the waste stream, and glass/plastic/wood to recycle, and donate clothing
kitchen goods home goods &c to goodwill/salvation army, church rummage sale, food to the food pantry and other things ...
i also buy used cars, and spent a number of years when i was younger re-purposing parts from a junk car to a road-worthy one,
just as i have a parts camera that i remove parts from to fix older cameras i have. what is the point of filling the landfill
with stuff tha can be re-used, recycled, repurposed restored &c ... ?

its like suggesting you can't eat leaftovers from last night's dinner because the grocery store, or farmer will go broke if you aren't cooking with fresh food every day.
===

to speak to the second part of your post,
most of the world doesn't use a film camera anymore ...
and even if they did, kodak would not lower their prices.
they have been raising their prices 2x a year since before the 1980s. it does not fluxuate
like the stock + commodities markets. the cost of silver is at a 7 year low ( about $16.32 / troy oz ) ,
does it seem like prices of film or paper or even silver nitrate reflect that ?
kodak has consistently been removing films from their line - up since ... the 1880s.
at the moment, sadly it seems like they offer too much, maybe they will get rid of the stuff that doesn't sell
and concentrate on the things that do.

BrianShaw · May 11, 2015

jnanian said:
you have said the same thing to me before too ...

if the stores are selling it as short date or expired film ( they have already purchased it )
they will buy more ...
...

R U sure? If I were a retailer I wouldn't since the demand clearly doesn't exist. Why should a retailer stock stuff that won't sell until it is discounted to unload. I understand the loss-leader retailing, but there doesn't seem to be much of a potential gain for anyone to hold onto stock that isn't moving just to unload it at a discount because it was unsellable.

removed account4 · May 11, 2015

hi brian

i am speaking of my personal experiences, from a few ( more than 3 less than 6 ) years ago.
yeah i know that is like 5 lifetimes ago in the current analog / chemical photography world ... but just the same ...

i on a regular basis used to buy short date film from hunt photo, outside of boston, mass, i have also bought short date from freestyle.
both places are still buying and selling film, and while i haven't bought from them recently,
from what i understand they still sell short date film, and from what i understand they still sell in-date film.

... maybe a mom+pop store wouldn't restock items, but mom and pop photo supply houses
seem to be a thing of the past, they don't have enough of a draw to sell what they have. and that is a shame. i would rather buy local,
but to be honest the last time i tried to buy local ( 4x5 sheet film / tmy ) it was at a place down the road from where i live. they didn't cater to
pro-users or people that shot sheet film ... i saw a box of 100 sheets on their shelf, and i asked how much it was .. ( it was expired, and had expired years before )
well, this mom and pop store had a price tag of $100 on this box of film ... i asked "are you sure it is that much, it is way-expired and brand new doesn't even cost tha much "
the guy looked in his book, wiped the dust off the box and said " yup, $100 " ... i didn't buy it, and haven't been back since. i ended up buying it at b+h for $64.90, shipped to my doorstep
and received it the next day ...

sorry for speaking generally, as if ALL stores will have enough of a pull + sales to buy more, after they sell their expired+short date film, i was thinking of the larger retailers
who seem to be doing well, and still cater to the film community ...

then again, maybe things have changed since the last time i bought film in a store, so take what i write with a large, VERY large grain of salt

so YMMV

Old-N-Feeble · May 11, 2015

I think the point was... if 'everyone' waited for film to be short-dated or out-of-date so they can buy at the retailer's loss... then no supplier would buy new film anymore and manufacturing would cease.

MattKing · May 11, 2015

Pioneer said:
Maybe Ilford users buy more film in bulk?

Or, maybe Ilford's system for edge marking and packaging is smaller, more flexible and, for relatively small volumes, way cheaper per roll to use.

removed account4 · May 11, 2015

Old-N-Feeble said:
I think the point was... if 'everyone' waited for film to be short-dated or out-of-date so they can buy at the retailer's loss... then no supplier would buy new film anymore and manufacturing would cease.

most people buy fresh in date, new film so i don't really understand how anyone would imagine "everyone waiting for expired / short date film"

Xmas · May 11, 2015

jnanian said:
most people buy fresh in date, new film so i don't really understand how anyone would imagine "everyone waiting for expired / short date film"

C- for imagination (must try harder)

Old-N-Feeble · May 11, 2015

jnanian said:
most people buy fresh in date, new film so i don't really understand how anyone would imagine "everyone waiting for expired / short date film"

With respect, John, that wasn't the point at all. You're right, most people buy in-date film. The other person's post simply infers, "IF" everyone only bought short-dated or out-of-date film "THEN" manufacturing would cease. Or "ELSE", if most folks continue to buy in-date film, manufacturing will continue. It's just an "IF-THEN-ELSE" statement and only a hypothesis.

MattKing · May 11, 2015

I've never bought short-dated or expired film when new film is available.

I have been given some.

I do, however, look for deals or specials or favourable prices on the new film I purchase.

BrianShaw · May 11, 2015

Old-N-Feeble said:
With respect, John, that wasn't the point at all. You're right, most people buy in-date film. The other person's post simply infers, "IF" everyone only bought short-dated or out-of-date film "THEN" manufacturing would cease. Or "ELSE", if most folks continue to buy in-date film, manufacturing will continue. It's just an "IF-THEN-ELSE" statement and only a hypothesis.

Or more accurately interpreted (since I think I may be "the other person" in this situation): Doesn't have to be everybody (100%) but may be just a lot of people (can't put a percentage on that since I'm sure its highly dependent on the tolerance of the retailer). I (if I were a retailer) would focus on selling stuff that both moves quickly and makes me money rather than stuff that sells somewhat, gathers dust somewhat, and needs to be clearance to get rid or (somewhat).

But I also think that John totally understands this context already.

We ALL look for deals, bargains, discounts, etc. when they are there to be found... I think this may be a very common attitude. But then again, I may be mistaken... there may be some who would offer a retailer the full retail price of outdated film that has been discounted to sell quickly. IDK any more.

removed account4 · May 11, 2015

Xmas said:
C- for imagination (must try harder)

thanks, i will do my best but i am seriously lacking,
and can't imagine a few people, on apug alone, who would
even consider buying expired film ...

hi brian

i do understand the context

Old-N-Feeble said:
With respect, John, that wasn't the point at all. You're right, most people buy in-date film. The other person's post simply infers, "IF" everyone only bought short-dated or out-of-date film "THEN" manufacturing would cease. Or "ELSE", if most folks continue to buy in-date film, manufacturing will continue. It's just an "IF-THEN-ELSE" statement and only a hypothesis.

hi ONF

sure, if EVERYONE did that, the film makers would certainly be up the creek.
but i don't think that scenario will ever happen, there are too many people
who are afraid of degradation, fog, speed loss, cosmic rays, film not being refrigerated or frozen &c
i think there is a better chance of the zombie apocolypse or whirrled peas ... or
new film prices falling to reflect the cost of silver that went into it
than EVERYONE buying expired and short date film ...

Wallendo · May 11, 2015

Kodak's reorganization has created a bad situation for those of us who love Kodak films.
Eastman Kodak can manufacture film, but cannot distribute it or sell it to any other that Kodak Alaris. There is no incentive for EK to promote or improve their films.
Kodak Alaris is really nothing more than a marketer of films, using film profits to further their future products. I doubt any money is budgetted for future development.
Neither company is willing to take any risks they can't control.
As we discuss the incredibly high price of their bulk films, we have to ask: Is EK no longer unable to manufacture this product efficiently? or does KA not want to place any significant orders? The bottom line is that there is no "Kodak", only two separate companies milking the cash cow until the udder runs dry.

I dread the day when the trademarks are sold off and "Kodak Tri-X Pan" rolls off the Shanghai production lines.

Old-N-Feeble · May 11, 2015

jnanian said:
thanks, i will do my best but i am seriously lacking,
and can't imagine a few people, on apug alone, who would
even consider buying expired film ...

hi brian

i do understand the context

hi ONF

sure, if EVERYONE did that, the film makers would certainly be up the creek.
but i don't think that scenario will ever happen, there are too many people
who are afraid of degradation, fog, speed loss, cosmic rays, film not being refrigerated or frozen &c
i think there is a better chance of the zombie apocolypse or whirrled peas ... or
new film prices falling to reflect the cost of silver that went into it
than EVERYONE buying expired and short date film ...

Of course, you're right and I never disagreed with your statements about dated film. I was just trying to clear up the point Brian was making. However, I think I just muddied the waters instead.

NB23 · May 11, 2015

Pioneer said:
But they still make some damn fine films.

I like them therefore I buy them.

But it is certainly fun to whine once in awhile.

Please be honest:

1-What film do you buy?
2-What price?
3-Do you/Will you buy a 200$ Bulk roll?

Pioneer · May 11, 2015

My most recent film purchases occurred in the past couple of days.

1 - 100' of Kodak 400TX - $85
2 - 2 - 5 pack of Kodak 400TX 120 roll film - $25
1 - 50 pack of Ilford HP5+ - $220 (just arrived in the big brown box truck.)

The one I am dreading is the Ilford Delta Pro 3200. I am WAY overdue to update my supply of 120 AND 135, and I am afraid it is going to be a bit pricey. I keep waiting for a sale but nothing has caught my attention yet.

JW PHOTO · May 11, 2015

Wallendo said:
Kodak's reorganization has created a bad situation for those of us who love Kodak films.

I dread the day when the trademarks are sold off and "Kodak Tri-X Pan" rolls off the Shanghai production lines.

Why? If the Shanghai Kodak film is just as good who cares if it's made in China? If it's cheaper and just as good then I care. Most of our U.S. jobs are already over there so a few more won't hurt I guess. I have no beef with Kodak 120 and 35mm canister film, but the ridiculous price for the same film in bulk insults what little bit on intelligence I still have. It also makes me want to buy "NO" Kodak products period. Sorry, that's just the way I am. Besides, I like Ilford, Fuji, Ultrafine Xtreme and yes, even Shanghai. John W

Pioneer · May 11, 2015

Sorry, missed your last question.

As for buying the $200 bulk roll, at this point I wouldn't, but all things are relative aren't they. Not too long ago I was paying around $35. It will kind of depend on what else is available and how they are priced.

To be honest, at this point I wouldn't spend $127 for a 100' roll and that is where it was just a short time ago. Right now Ilford HP5+ is far less expensive than TriX so I purchased some to do some experimenting. But, as you can see, I am still buying TriX.

Xmas · May 11, 2015

NB23 said:
Please be honest:

1-What film do you buy?
2-What price?
3-Do you/Will you buy a 200$ Bulk roll?

Fomapan 400 @ 39 GBP 100 foot

I can't get Tx bulk at 200 USD
156 GBP is rather more

NB23 · May 11, 2015

Pioneer said:
My most recent film purchases occurred in the past couple of days.

1 - 100' of Kodak 400TX - $85
2 - 2 - 5 pack of Kodak 400TX 120 roll film - $25
1 - 50 pack of Ilford HP5+ - $220 (just arrived in the big brown box truck.)

The one I am dreading is the Ilford Delta Pro 3200. I am WAY overdue to update my supply of 120 AND 135, and I am afraid it is going to be a bit pricey. I keep waiting for a sale but nothing has caught my attention yet.

These are sensible prices.

When HP5 will reach 200$ the Bulk, Tri-X will probably be at 600$.

Really, I hope HP5 stays where it is. HP5 is as good as Tri-X. For me, it is better. I've dialed it in perfectly.

Pioneer · May 11, 2015

NB23 said:
These are sensible prices.

When HP5 will reach 200$ the Bulk, Tri-X will probably be at 600$.

Really, I hope HP5 stays where it is. HP5 is as good as Tri-X. For me, it is better. I've dialed it in perfectly.

Not too bad. But for me that is only about 2 month's supply of 35mm and about 2 week's worth of 120.

Wallendo · May 11, 2015

JW PHOTO said:
Why? If the Shanghai Kodak film is just as good who cares if it's made in China? If it's cheaper and just as good then I care. Most of our U.S. jobs are already over there so a few more won't hurt I guess. I have no beef with Kodak 120 and 35mm canister film, but the ridiculous price for the same film in bulk insults what little bit on intelligence I still have. It also makes me want to buy "NO" Kodak products period. Sorry, that's just the way I am. Besides, I like Ilford, Fuji, Ultrafine Xtreme and yes, even Shanghai. John W

My problem is not with China. What I fear is an AGFA/AGFAPhoto type situation where brand names can be applied to different products. I don't mind Chinese Tri-X if it is really Tri-X. What I would mind is if the Tri-X name was applied to a completely different film.

JW PHOTO · May 11, 2015

Wallendo said:
My problem is not with China. What I fear is an AGFA/AGFAPhoto type situation where brand names can be applied to different products. I don't mind Chinese Tri-X if it is really Tri-X. What I would mind is if the Tri-X name was applied to a completely different film.

Same thing applies to brand names being sold off. You think, "Ah, they started making so and so again" only to find out it's a piece of junk with so and so's name on it. If they(the Chinese) did market a junk clone to Tri-X with the Tri-X name on it I don't think it would take us very long to figure out what was going on and not buy it anymore. I'll buy Chinese film if it's good stuff at a good price, but I won't buy junk at any price. John W

What's with Kodak film pricing?

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What's with Kodak film pricing?

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