What's the big deal.... [about Leica]

livemoa · Nov 13, 2006

Dave, Oh I don't know, try a what's so special about Nikon or Canon and see the flame wars.

I think the thing with Leica is the disconnect between users and collectors. Collectors look down on people like me, we take our cameras out and really use them, even in the wet sometimes!

Dave Parker · Nov 13, 2006

David,

Myself personally, figure the only reason to buy ANY camera is to take pictures, I look at it this way, I can collect and hope the value goes up, or I can shoot and know my images will make money..I always find these threads very comical, they are always good for a few laughs and nobody ever changes their mind...

Dave

livemoa · Nov 13, 2006

I also only own cameras for the same reason Except mine never seem to go up in value, now maybe if I wrap them in plastic and put them in a display case..........

I should also know not to get into these sort of posts, but .........

David H. Bebbington · Nov 13, 2006

It seems that the issues that press people's buttons most reliably are:
1) Digital
2) Leica
3) Art
4) Business methods

I wonder what the ultimate controversial posting would be?

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

livemoa said:
Dave, Oh I don't know, try a what's so special about Nikon or Canon and see the flame wars.

I think the thing with Leica is the disconnect between users and collectors. Collectors look down on people like me, we take our cameras out and really use them, even in the wet sometimes!

They wouldn't look down upon you - just think you are nuts to actually USE the things!

(The collector thing seems to me to be akin comic book collecting - where someone would buy "Super X Spider Aqua Man #1" and quickly put it in plastic never reading it or gleaning through it very quickly since actual handling might reduce its value)

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

livemoa said:
I also only own cameras for the same reason Except mine never seem to go up in value, now maybe if I wrap them in plastic and put them in a display case..........

I should also know not to get into these sort of posts, but .........

Nope - its too late for you - you already USED the cameras to take PHOTOS! You might as well use it for a paperweight at this point!

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
It seems that the issues that press people's buttons most reliably are:
1) Digital
2) Leica
3) Art
4) Business methods

I wonder what the ultimate controversial posting would be?

How about this?

"I have a LEICA to produce my ART, but I think a DIGITAL LEICA might improve my BUSINESS METHOD"

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

copake_ham said:
Then it comes out with it's much vaunted digiRF - the M8. And the damned thing renders black as purple! The solution? Put an IR filter on your lens to compensate for sensor flaws!

There you have it! The company that once made the finest (though only basic) camera bodies and superb glass telling you that in order for your new $5000 digicamera to shoot "true black" you have to put a filter on the lens!

Yikes!

All CCD sensors are more sensitive to IR than visible light - properties of the semiconductors. a good CAMERA design (not sensor, the sensor 'prolly isn't flawed) will take this into account and put a filter over the sensor - also properly designed would be an anti-aliasing filter, too.

Still, Leica sure screwed up on the initial release. This is a rookie mistake for digicam makers.

Ought to be easy to fix, though.

naturephoto1 · Nov 13, 2006

Hi George,

I also expect that the M8 fix will be a rather easy and probably a relatively painless fix. But, in the mean time it may be a bit aggravating to some.

Rich

bkorites · Nov 13, 2006

I think a good robot is as capable or more capable of assembling to tight tolerances than some German 20 year old who's been out all weekend at the beer hall.

The reason why Leicas cost so much is that the company, being small, has never had the capital to invest in modern manufacturing technology. As a result, they have to pay inflated labor costs. German labor rates are among the world's highest thanks to their welfare state.

I once bought a German made computerized paper cutter. It arrived by truck in a wooden crate. After we got it off the truck onto our loading dock I noticed there was oil leaking out the bottom. Then I noticed, while the pallet skids were on the bottom of the crate where they should be, the red "up" arrows stenciled on the sides were pointing down. When we got the crate open I found the cutter upside down with the control panel smashed to bits, broken parts all over the bottom swimming in hydraulic fluid.

I called the company and they checked the other cutters in their Brooklyn, NY warehouse and guess what - they had over 100 cutters all sitting upside down in their crates!

Apparently some idot German youth either stencilled the up arrows in the wrong direction or some other idiot German youth put the pallet skids on the wrong end.

Sorry, I don't buy into the myth of German invincibility. If you want quality, buy Japanese. If you want to save money and take advantage of modern manufacturing technology, buy Japanese.

I think the quality of optics you will get out of any high end lens from any reputable manufacturer will be on a par with one another - Nikon, Leica, Zeiss, Fujinon....

You can find a lot of detailed lens tests on cloudynights.com. The winners tend to be Japanese and Zeiss. I read one test of astronomical binoculars that said Fujinons transmitted 96% of incident light; Nikons and Zeiss a bit less. Leica was at the bottom with 85%. They're all great pieces of optics, of course, but Leica is by no means at the very top.

André E.C. · Nov 13, 2006

bkorites said:
If you want quality, buy Japanese.

Ouch, this is so wrong!
The only problem with German industry, is their mentality!
Germans previlege quality over quantity, it`s very difficult for them to compete with countries confortable with the mass production concept.
"Made in Germany", you can bet it`s top quality!

bkorites said:
If you want to save money and take advantage of modern manufacturing technology, buy Japanese.

With this I fully agree!

PS- Check Japanese optical industry history and you will find German engeneering as a main reference for them!
Early Canons and Nikons, were copies of early model Leicas and Zeiss Contax.

Cheers

André

naturephoto1 · Nov 13, 2006

bkorites said:
Snip

You can find a lot of detailed lens tests on cloudynights.com. The winners tend to be Japanese and Zeiss. I read one test of astronomical binoculars that said Fujinons transmitted 96% of incident light; Nikons and Zeiss a bit less. Leica was at the bottom with 85%. They're all great pieces of optics, of course, but Leica is by no means at the very top.

In response to your comment regarding Leica lenses, again they do not necessarily design their optics to be the sharpest or to have the highest light transmissions. There are other properties to optical design concerns that they address. See my comment from page 1 and we are going full circle:

naturephoto1 said:
Snip

Optical performance of most Leicas are also legendary. Leica lenses generally perform better than much of their competition wide open (by design). Leica also tends to design their optics to perform more evenly for lines per millimeter than many of their competitors. Their lenses may not resolve as many lines however at the center. Leica puts tremendous effort in aligning the elements in their lenses which contribute to their performance. Additionally, their have been some photographers that claim that they can recognize images taken with a Leica and separate those images taken by other makes. I do not claim to have that ability. However, I have been very pleased by the performance of my Leica glass.

Rich

Rich

haris · Nov 13, 2006

bkorites said:
German labor rates are among the world's highest thanks to their welfare state.

That is good. I want my country to be like that. I can't understand anyone can see that as fault. That is what country should do, to take care of theire citizens. What is point to have state if government will tell "free market will do everything, who have money will finish schools and have health care, who doesn't have money will stay uneducated and die of illneses". What good is of such state?

IF I have money I wold pay Leica prices. And one of reasons, beside Leica quality, is to pay tribute to country who take care of theire citizens. When my country doesn't do that...

If I can chose I would prefer my country would be like Germany. Much better than like USA. I am not talk politics, I am talking education accessing, health care accessing, social security, labor laws, things lke that.

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

André E.C. said:
Ouch, this is so wrong!
The only problem with German industry, is their mentality!
Germans previlege quality over quantity, it`s very difficult for them to compete with countries confortable with the mass production concept.
"Made in Germany", you can bet it`s top quality!

I have found that German engineering to be top rate, and the quality is very good as well. But the Japanese know how to maintain quality and keep prices low. When the Japanese aren't trying to mass-market something, they can and do an excellent job with precision - and can kick most people's butts in price, reliability and quality.

I have found that anywhere mistakes happen - but the current M8 issues are very typical of a small company, though I would be surprised if it came out of a Japanese company.

With this I fully agree!

PS- Check Japanese optical industry history and you will find German engeneering as a main reference for them!
Early Canons and Nikons, were copies of early model Leicas and Zeiss Contax.

Of course, this is correct - and true to form, they took that, improved it, and went on to take over the world. Now, though, they are innovative as well, so can and do produce some excellent original technologies.

butterflydream · Nov 13, 2006

Many of leica shooters, including myself, prefer older leica lenses to newer 'apo' and 'asph' lenses.
I don't even know how to interprete MTF curves.

Regarding German quality - I can say it is not like before.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Nov 13, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
It seems that the issues that press people's buttons most reliably are:
1) Digital
2) Leica
3) Art
4) Business methods

I wonder what the ultimate controversial posting would be?

Potential candidate:

Can I run a successful business selling fine art print made from my digital Leica?

But more to the point of the OP, this weekend I was in Toronto and I played a bit with a used M3 they had in their display. What impressed me above all is the quiet shutter.

Yes, the lenses are good, yes the craftmanship is good, but the shutter is so buttery that it's got to be the quietest 35mm camera with interchangeable lens ever.

I played with a Bessa R2M at Downtown Camera, and while it was a very nice camera, its shutter and film advance sounded more like my Praktica.

And in terms of price, well the used M3 kit was 1800$, the Bessa was 1200$. Compared to what I paid for my computer (Mac PB 12) and compared to how long these items would last, I think in the end it's a question of priorities. Some people actually make a living out of needing a quiet shutter.

Roger Hicks · Nov 13, 2006

haris said:
That is good. I want my country to be like that...

Absolutely!

Roger

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

haris said:
That is good. I want my country to be like that.

I think the conflict is between the following philosophies:

1. The government should limit interference (though taxes and regulation) with private enterprise, because limiting this creates a larger rate of employment and a higher standard of living as well as dynamic growth. Unequal income distribution is an acceptable trade-off since overall there is more wealth.

2. The government should provide for its citizens, and through careful regulation, and a steeply progressive tax structure, everyone is better off (even if there is slightly less wealth than there would be otherwise). If unemployment is high and growth isn't as high as #1, then this is a price we are willing to pay since benefits of the economy are more equally shared, and minimum guaranteed benefits are present.

IF I have money I wold pay Leica prices. And one of reasons, beside Leica quality, is to pay tribute to country who take care of their citizens. When my country doesn't do that...

If I can chose I would prefer my country would be like Germany. Much better than like USA. I am not talk politics, I am talking education accessing, health care accessing, social security, labor laws, things like that.

A welfare state costs a LOT of money, and having worked in the US and UK, I found the working environment about the same, through taxes are much lower in the US.

Despite the stories, the US isn't a bad place, though if you want comprehensive public health benefits, a comprehensive dole, and so on, the US won't provide it to you.

David H. Bebbington · Nov 13, 2006

mhv said:
Potential candidate:

Can I run a successful business selling fine art print made from my digital Leica?

Perhaps with the addition: "I've seen wet-process prints and I think they're rubbish!"?

Bromo33333 · Nov 13, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
Perhaps with the addition: "I've seen wet-process prints and I think they're rubbish!"?

You forgot to add you have to show a poorly scanned unprocessed 800 speed film negative compared to a way too saturated, pixellated, oversharpened digipic that you conclude is "much better than even Large Format."

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Nov 13, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
Perhaps with the addition: "I've seen wet-process prints and I think they're rubbish!"?

Yes, but toning them would enhance their archival permanence.... or would it?

kb244 · Nov 13, 2006

Jim Jones said:
Karl -- I dug out my battered Canon P for the first time in a few years. In that time the shutter has become gummed up. That's the major, but not the only, problem it has. I was glad to upgrade to a M2 39 years ago after using the P for just a few years. The Canon 1.8 lens seemed OK at the time. The 1.4 lens from my Canon 7 was a dog compared to the Summicron on the Leica. The metal Canon shutters don't take abuse as well as the flexible Leica types. The Leica rangefinders are great. Some friends don't like the way a Leica focuses [!!!] and handles, so they aren't for everyone. The price is another problem. So are the inherent limitations of a rangefinder camera. Overall, the Leica is better than than any other camera I've ever used.

1) First off, who leaves a camera around for years and expects it to work great sitting around. Look at the shelf life on say a hasselblad if they were not used in 6 months they had to be sent back to the manufacture for a tune up before arriving back in the store for sale. I think the Canon P is a good camera, just needs to be used as intended. So its not that the canon didn't take abuse, but that you didnt abuse it enough.

2) True that the leica cloth shutter is more flexible, however when the Canon shutter gets gummed up, it can least be serviced and cleaned. When a leica cloth shutter gums up, it goes to hell and needs to be completely replaced. Its one of the first things we look for before buying a leica from any customer.

Besides without the Canon P, we couldn't have this argument

Roger Hicks · Nov 13, 2006

kb244 said:
1) First off, who leaves a camera around for years and expects it to work great sitting around.

Me. And amazingly often, they do.

Cheers,

R.

kb244 · Nov 13, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Me. And amazingly often, they do.

Cheers,

R.

Next time you plan to leave the camera sitting for a couple years, can I borrow it in that time?

Roger Hicks · Nov 13, 2006

kb244 said:
Next time you plan to leave the camera sitting for a couple years, can I borrow it in that time?

Dear Karl,

Of course. You pay shipping both ways, with 100% deposit against loss/theft -- say, $10,000 for my Alpa with 38/4.5 Biogon -- and an undertaking to return it within 72 hours, and I don't see any great problem...

The point is that as you get older, 2 years seems closer and closer to 'a couple of months ago'.

Cheers,

R.

What's the big deal.... [about Leica]

livemoa

Dave Parker

livemoa

David H. Bebbington

Bromo33333

Bromo33333

Bromo33333

Bromo33333

naturephoto1

bkorites

André E.C.

naturephoto1

haris

Bromo33333

butterflydream

Michel Hardy-Vallée

Membership Council

Roger Hicks

Bromo33333

David H. Bebbington

Bromo33333

Michel Hardy-Vallée

Membership Council

kb244

Roger Hicks

kb244

Roger Hicks

What's the big deal.... [about Leica]

haris

Membership Council

Membership Council

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency