What's the big deal.... [about Leica]

copake_ham · Nov 9, 2006

naturephoto1 said:
Hi George,

The M8 is a 10.3 mega pixel camera. With the software for the Digital Module R for the R8 and R9 the module has more color depth than their competition. From my understanding many have been finding that the mega pixel count may not be as important as once thought. Additionally, I know that there have been users working with the Digital Modular R and stopped using (at least for much application) the 16 mega pixel top of the line Canon camera. At least some time back these users were finding (or suggesting) that the Leica Modular R (with Leica glass) was outperforming the output capabilities of the Canon (with Canon glass). So if that is the case, do not underestimate the M8. It is newer than the Digital Modular R.

Rich

Rich,

If that is the case (10.3mp) then I stand corrected. I had heard a much lower number back last Spring when the first info was being "leaked out".

I guess you can tell how otherwise uninterested I am in it....

Bromo33333 · Nov 9, 2006

Yikes! Why are we talking about D^&*(%&(%^&*L Stuff?

I mean to compare them is to say the 1986 Yugo is worse than the 1987 Yugo.

I would stack my Hasselblad (and even the Zeiss Ikon!) with TMAX100 against any D^&*(%^(&*%^&*L oncomers any day!

copake_ham · Nov 9, 2006

Bromo33333 said:
Yikes! Why are we talking about D^&*(%&(%^&*L Stuff?

I mean to compare them is to say the 1986 Yugo is worse than the 1987 Yugo.

I would stack my Hasselblad (and even the Zeiss Ikon!) with TMAX100 against any D^&*(%^(&*%^&*L oncomers any day!

Brent,

I agree.

But the thread started with a query about Leica and that company has just introduced their new M8 digiRF so it's not so surprising that the thread has veered off to discussing it.

For those who may be interested, I just found this on RFF - it seems to summarize the "issues" regarding the camera fairly well:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/modules.php?name=News&file=showarticle&threadid=31026

With that, I agree that this thread has "strayed" a bit too far to the dark side.

Sportera · Nov 9, 2006

I would agree that the camera itself is the reason that I use a Leica. Its simple and forces you to think, its a greats sytem.

Having said that, the lenses are not the answer to the magic bullet question, and now they do not provide MF quality with 35mm film. My Summicron flares in the sun just like a Nikon lens would. The leica lenses are simply the best that 35mm has to offer, but can the average user actually see a difference? I don't know. I have work made with my Nikon that compares to work with my Leica. I have good Nikon glass, and thats the key, buy the best glass you can afford.

Why do I have a Leica if I feel I can get the same or close to the same results with my Nikon? As I said the body is a perfect low light tool. Its quiet and unobtrusive. It doesn't require batteries, and to be honest I just love shooting with it.

Roger Hicks · Nov 10, 2006

Bromo33333 said:
I mean to compare them is to say the 1986 Yugo is worse than the 1987 Yugo.

I had a Yugo once; about a 1990 model, if I remember. It wasn't a bad little car. It developed one fault in the time I had it from new, a loose engine mounting bolt which caused the nost alarming-sounding clonks but was not exactly serious. Once that was fixed under guarantee, I never had a single problem in the three years or so that I owned it.

Cheers,

Roger

Bromo33333 · Nov 10, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
I had a Yugo once; about a 1990 model, if I remember. It wasn't a bad little car. It developed one fault in the time I had it from new, a loose engine mounting bolt which caused the nost alarming-sounding clonks but was not exactly serious. Once that was fixed under guarantee, I never had a single problem in the three years or so that I owned it.

An ex-girlfreind of mine had one (she bought it new around 1985 or 6). I was scared to death riding in it - simply because she was an inexperienced driver and here in the US (MO especially) it was so much smaller and didn't have the zippiness really required fro a small car amongst big ones.

Given how much larger the new cars on the road has got since then I can't imagine ...

ALso shipped with a toolkit - which was a sign, though her car only broke down 5 or 6 times. And I had to tweak around with it since the dealer didn't seem capable of fixing it.

Roger Hicks · Nov 10, 2006

Bromo33333 said:
An ex-girlfreind of mine had one (she bought it new around 1985 or 6). I was scared to death riding in it - simply because she was an inexperienced driver and here in the US (MO especially) it was so much smaller and didn't have the zippiness really required fro a small car amongst big ones.

Given how much larger the new cars on the road has got since then I can't imagine ...

ALso shipped with a toolkit - which was a sign, though her car only broke down 5 or 6 times. And I had to tweak around with it since the dealer didn't seem capable of fixing it.

We bought it in California and drove it (among many other edventures) to Virginia and back in it before shipping it to the UK in '92, where we had great fun with the MoT (Ministry of Transport Certificate of Roadworthiness). When it came to the emissions control they kept tapping the meters and shoving the sensor further up the exhaust pipe: they had never had a California spec cat-equipped car before.

Until recently ALL half-decent cars came with a toolkit; devotees of old Rovers will recall the walnut-capped, foam-lined drawer under the dash on the passenger's side on P4 (60-75-80-90-95-100-105-110) and P5 (3-litre) versions. I don't know if BMW motorcycles still do, but certainly my 1977 R100RS did/does. I still carry it. If anything does go wrong, far better to fix it quickly and reliably yourself than to wait 3 hours for roadside assistance. Not that the Yugo ever did break down (the BMW has, a few times, in the last 30 years).

Cheers,

R.

copake_ham · Nov 10, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
.....
Until recently ALL half-decent cars came with a toolkit; devotees of old Rovers will recall the walnut-capped, foam-lined drawer under the dash on the passenger's side on P4 (60-75-80-90-95-100-105-110) and P5 (3-litre) versions. I don't know if BMW motorcycles still do, but certainly my 1977 R100RS did/does. I still carry it. If anything does go wrong, far better to fix it quickly and reliably yourself than to wait 3 hours for roadside assistance. Not that the Yugo ever did break down (the BMW has, a few times, in the last 30 years).

Cheers,

R.

Roger,

Aw, c'mon - everyone knows that these BMW tool kits are a gimmick! My wife's 2002 330Ci has one in the trunk (boot). A bunch of wrenches (spanners) and screwdrivers.

The most important tool in there is the card with the "800" number to call for the 24/7/365 BMW Roadside Assistance!

Ever see the what's under the hood (bonnet) of a modern BMW? A cowling to keep you from even looking at the engine - much less messing with it.

The damned thing has a 100,000+ mile warranty - they'd prefer you keep your grubby little digits off the "workings"!

Roger Hicks · Nov 11, 2006

copake_ham said:
Roger,

Aw, c'mon - everyone knows that these BMW tool kits are a gimmick! My wife's 2002 330Ci has one in the trunk (boot). A bunch of wrenches (spanners) and screwdrivers.

The most important tool in there is the card with the "800" number to call for the 24/7/365 BMW Roadside Assistance!

Ever see the what's under the hood (bonnet) of a modern BMW? A cowling to keep you from even looking at the engine - much less messing with it.

The damned thing has a 100,000+ mile warranty - they'd prefer you keep your grubby little digits off the "workings"!

Dear George,

You'll notice that I said 'motorcycle'.

When it comes to cars, this is another compelling argument (alongside the prices) for buying classics you CAN fix yourseld.

Cheers,

R.

Bromo33333 · Nov 11, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Dear George,

You'll notice that I said 'motorcycle'.

When it comes to cars, this is another compelling argument (alongside the prices) for buying classics you CAN fix yourself.

A classic car is a lifestyle choice - and you certainly will have lots of opportunity at honing your mechanic's skill! In the US, I would only get one as a "backup car" rather than one I rely upon as a daily driver. Public transport being what it is here in the US, as well as how the towns are laid out, you need at least 1 reliable car per adult in most situations (downtown NYC and much of downtown SF being the big exceptions!) - and given the hours you have to work usually, you have to be able to leave a broken down classic in the garage until the weekend and still be able to get to work and so on. Employers take a dim view of someone with continuous car trouble causing them to miss work!

But having said that, there are a number of cars that if you stick to the routine maintenance (oil & fluid changes and wear-out item changes when called for mostly) they will be highly reliable and cheap to keep on the road, mechanics wise, even if they have less character than other cars.

Oh, George, I am sure you have heard BMW stands for "Break My Wallet"?

The 330 is a great car, when I lived in the SF Bay Area, they were very popular (we called them the "Bay Area Chevy") and a firend of mine had a M3 that was a real kick to drive. I like Audi as well, but when it became the time to buy a car, we ended up getting Saab 9-5 Aero wagon.

Roger Hicks · Nov 11, 2006

Bromo33333 said:
... you need at least 1 reliable car per adult...

So move. Or vote. ALL choices are lifestyle choices. And isn't at least one reliable car per adult a bit excessive?

Where we live -- 10 miles from the nearest supermarket, two buses a day, passenger trains stopped running 40+ years ago -- a reliable car is a good idea too. Which is why I have a '72 Land Rover in which I have driven to Romania, Portugal, Poland... It has in all fairness broken down twice (that I couldn't fix myself, quicker than waiting for a breakdown service), both times on the way back from photokina (02 and 04). Having a second car was a waste of time and money so I sold it -- though we still have a motorcycle each; a bicycle each; and legs.

Cheers,

R.

Bromo33333 · Nov 11, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
So move. Or vote. ALL choices are lifestyle choices. And isn't at least one reliable car per adult a bit excessive?

Here, no (I was going to say "Welcome to the USA" but that seemed trite). It is normal. And it does not bother me - as it is true in 99% of the USA so there isn't much to be gained by moving. Voting - perhaps, but it would take a concerted effort over 50 years to reverse the way townds are laid out. Having lived in the UK, even with poor public transport, it is laid out to be pedestrian in some parts - it is not at all in the US - in fact in most places there aren't even side walks!

Some families have 3 cars: 2 as daily drivers, and 1 "fun" car such as a classic, convertible, sports car or some such (like a motorcycle).

Jim Jones · Nov 11, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
. . . And isn't at least one reliable car per adult a bit excessive? . . .

Cheers,

R.

Not at all. I live alone, and may eventually sell my second car. However, it's good to have a car for long trips or many passengers, and a 4WD pickup for essentials. Neither just one vehicle nor just one camera serves all possible needs.

kb244 · Nov 11, 2006

I'll just stick with this, and probally pick up a Leica Lens later. Oddly enough my camera here was probally better than the Leica screwmount bodies at the time (M series.... eehhh thats a different story).

But ya the whole Leica thing is like a religion to some, or some would swear theres nothing better ( Tho some people are afraid to admit it ). I remeber I was joking with a regular customer who brought in his black Leica M6 camera, and I showed him my Canon P, and he made a comment about it being heavy, so I decided to say "Well of course, it's solid brass, not like that piece of shit aluminum you got there..."

frank · Nov 11, 2006

I find that there is a lot of similarity between my older M and screwmount Leicas, and my 2 older BMW motorcycles. I appreciate both for their design, engineering, build quality, and repairability. (The tool kits on the bikes are useful.) I would want neither a modern motorcycle, nor a modern camera (aside from a Leica MP which is designed and built to the traditional standard, aside from the light meter.) I'm not a Leica snob, as I find the same satisfaction in using my Contax IIa and Nikon S cameras, and as I also would if I owned a Canon P.

copake_ham · Nov 11, 2006

Bromo33333 said:
....
Oh, George, I am sure you have heard BMW stands for "Break My Wallet"?
......

Brent,

Actually, modern BMW's come with all servicing included (including oil changes etc.). Yes, you pay "up front" but you don't pay for any servicing thereafter for five or more years! Brake light goes out? Bring it in, they replace it and hand you a bill for $0.00! etc.

BMW made a decision to move to this "all-inclusive" pricing several years ago - which is exactly why they do not want you "messing" with the innards!

BrianShaw · Nov 11, 2006

copake_ham said:
Actually, modern BMW's come with all servicing included (including oil changes etc.). Yes, you pay "up front" but you don't pay for any servicing thereafter for five or more years! Brake light goes out? Bring it in, they replace it and hand you a bill for $0.00! etc.

Maybe I should have considered this before I bought my Mercedes. I'm starting to hyperventilate just thinking about the probable cost of "Service A".

livemoa · Nov 11, 2006

Bromo33333 said:
Oh, George, I am sure you have heard BMW stands for "Break My Wallet"?

Nah, it means Baaad maaaan Waaagonnn, (think very broad Jamaican accent) that or Bob Marley and the Wailers

copake_ham · Nov 11, 2006

BrianShaw said:
Maybe I should have considered this before I bought my Mercedes. I'm starting to hyperventilate just thinking about the probable cost of "Service A".

Someday, if you swear to secrecy, I will tell you how I managed last year to break the driver's side window and got BMW to replace it for free!

Jim Jones · Nov 11, 2006

Karl -- I dug out my battered Canon P for the first time in a few years. In that time the shutter has become gummed up. That's the major, but not the only, problem it has. I was glad to upgrade to a M2 39 years ago after using the P for just a few years. The Canon 1.8 lens seemed OK at the time. The 1.4 lens from my Canon 7 was a dog compared to the Summicron on the Leica. The metal Canon shutters don't take abuse as well as the flexible Leica types. The Leica rangefinders are great. Some friends don't like the way a Leica focuses [!!!] and handles, so they aren't for everyone. The price is another problem. So are the inherent limitations of a rangefinder camera. Overall, the Leica is better than than any other camera I've ever used.

PKM-25 · Nov 12, 2006

First off, you can most likely find a good condition M6 classic for $800-$900 now. Considering that is not much more than other fine cameras like a Nikon FM3, F100, Canon eosV, etc, it is really not that bad. Think about this for a moment:

If the M6 is $200-$400 more than another rangefinder, how much do you spend on other things in life? Cable? Internet? Fast food? It all adds up.

Now, I have been shooting since age 9, that is 30 years of shooting. For many year, I thought fact that Leica optics were 5-10 times the price of similar focal lengths was insane, insulting even. Surely, the lenses can't be *that* much better, I thought.

Well, three years ago, I decided that it was time to take away attention from shooting paid gigs and do a personal project. Many on here will tell you it is about Kodachrome.

So I had been shooting on a Hasselblad Xpan and some manual Nikon gear. The results were pretty good, especially from the pano.

Then I decided, what the heck, it is time to see what all the Leica hype is all about. So I picked up a mint M6 classic and a 35 2.0 Summicron for $1,700. I shot with it for a whole week, ran the film and was shocked.

Aside from seeing a much more rich image, I had a distinct feeling that I was an idiot for having not done this sooner.

So now I still own the M6, but I sold the 35 and replaced it with two of the very best lenses made for any format, the 28mm 2.0 aspheric Summicron and the 50mm 1.4 aspheric Summilux. Let's just say I am selling some Nikon gear now.

I own 9 cameras and dozens of lenses, the only one I really want to shoot now is the Leica. If you are a committed craftsman, obsessed about image quality and total sharpness, the new Leica aspheric M lenses simply leave everything else in the dust.

A formula one race car is about 10 times the price of a car that will go 75% it's top speed. So you pay 10 times more for a model that only gives you a gain of 25%.

To a race car driver, that extra 25% makes his career. It's not everything to every one, it is everything to some though...

rjas · Nov 12, 2006

PKM-25 said:
First off, you can most likely find a good condition M6 classic for $800-$900 now.

Where can I find an M6 for $800-$900? Lowest I have found is $1100 for a "mint" black M6. I'm not being snide, I'd really like to know if I can save any money.

Woolliscroft · Nov 12, 2006

Use one for a bit, then see if you need to ask again. I didn't.

David.

Roger Hicks · Nov 12, 2006

rjas said:
Where can I find an M6 for $800-$900? Lowest I have found is $1100 for a "mint" black M6. I'm not being snide, I'd really like to know if I can save any money.

Cameras are ALWAYS cheaper when you're not looking for one, and cheaper still if you don't actually want one, e.g. I have no interest in an M6 and could therefore probably find one for $750 while you, who want one, can't get under $1000. It's one of those laws of nature...

Cheers,

R.

PKM-25 · Nov 12, 2006

rjas said:
Where can I find an M6 for $800-$900? Lowest I have found is $1100 for a "mint" black M6. I'm not being snide, I'd really like to know if I can save any money.

I bet this one goes for $800:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=230047052374&rd=1&rd=1

What's the big deal.... [about Leica]

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