What's really needed to sell prints?

grahamp · Jun 21, 2006

Since I am part of a group doing an open studio this coming weekend (photography, sculpture, watercolour, and block prints), I am in the middle of just this sort of exercise.

After a few years I have some idea of my market - I can sell material matted to 11x14. 11x14 prints matted to 20x16 is tougher. Postcards are popular, but hand printed postcards are hard work for little return. Commercial printing is pricey for small runs. One of the advantages of a group is that we share the cost of our mailing. So I am looking at a $20-$40 per item market for this event. $80+ just won't move. Better photographs might help (!)

Try Dick Blick (http://www.dickblick.com) for plain white mats and mounts in blanks and standard sizes. They have their house brand in 6-packs at a good price. Essentially bulk packaged Neilsen acid-free mats.

Matted prints are stored in clear bags (http://www.clearbags.com).

I will frame on request, but I would rather someone went to a framer than go to the trouble of delivering or shipping a framed print.

I have some framed examples on display, naturally.

But I am not expecting to make a living doing this - the marketing is small, and the financial and time investment is moderate. But I can recoup my costs for the event.

Travis Nunn · Jun 21, 2006

Donald, a little less than a year ago I decided it was time for me to start selling my prints. Like you, I couldn't afford to drop a ton of money at once to get everything I needed. What I did do, however, was make a list of all the prints that I felt were my best and I've been printing them little by little over the past year. I also bought the other items as I went along (mats, hinging tape, etc.) when I could spare the cash. It is frustrating sometimes because I'm moving slower than what I would like, but its what I can afford.

What this long winded post is getting at is you don't have to do everything all at once. Buy things as you can and eventuallly it will all come together. Sometimes it does mean buying a frame or two or some mat boards instead of film. And as others have said, marketing is part of it, like it or not. The greatest photographer in the world is still a nobody if no one knows about him.

Shane Knight · Jun 21, 2006

Hello Donald,

First of all, the only one that can say that you are ready is You. If you need to ask, then I would assume that you are "not ready." We all know about assumptions, so take this with a grain of salt.

After reading your post and current situation, I would recommend more research on learning and understanding presentation and markets which includes the basics of mounting and mat cutting. To start in the business of selling photography; quality and presentation is most important.
Most people will say "practice makes perfect" -- WRONG!!
Perfect practice makes perfect.

Your question was "can I sell *naked* prints" --
First, please call them "loose prints" or "print only", generally people might find your term "naked" distracting. YES, there is a market for loose prints, but you need to ask yourself how you are going to find your market and present your work. Also, do you really want to sell a loose print to a customer that might be using your work as art and will eventually have it framed?
One helpful hint to understanding the business of selling photography is to walk in your customer's shoes.

The advice I commonly give out is: when you believe you are truly ready to enter the market of selling photography; keep working at it, do more research, and wait two more years...you'll wish you did

I don't mean to discourage you, I just don't like to sugar coat things especially when it comes to the business of selling art.

All things photography is like everything else, you can be discourage or inspired, its up to you.

I wish you luck and great success on your dreams and goals.

Shane Knight
www.shaneknight.com

kjsphoto · Jun 21, 2006

I dont know what all the fuss is over I sell unmated loose prints on ebay also and they SELL! And get this, not a single person that has bought them complained. Why does he need to have to frame, mount, matt, etc??

Give me a break. Look I do this for a living and I could give stuff if I dont get a thousand bucks for an image. I am in this to make money and not starve to death. I will sell un-mounted and unmated prints all day long for $30-50 bucks who cares! IF someone wants a mounted and matted print that is fine also and I have a different collection of prints to fit that bill as well.

Donald if I were you just go for it and ignore this framing, mounting and matting business. You dont need it. If you would like to do it down the road then that is a personal choice but definitely not something you NEED to do especially starting out, the sooner you get your images on the market the sooner you will be selling them.

I look at it like this. You have those that have days jobs and make bank so they can afford to put there prints in a gallery and ask $500-1000 bucks for them while they sit on the gallery walls for 5-6 months. Well I dont have that luxury and even if I did I dont think I would. My goal is to get a print in everyones home and not everyone can afford $1000 for a photograph heck maybe they cant afford what I change either but at least I dont have to worry about giving a gallery a 60.40 split and dont have to worry of not being to sell that image elsewhere as the gallery is showing it.

Just ignore all this framing and matting and list a few prints for what YOU FEEL is the right price not what everyone else tell you is the right price. And as time goes on, you can raise your prices and who knows maybe in time they will be selling for a $1000 but you got to start somewhere.

lee · Jun 21, 2006

Kevin,

I am amused by your stance on selling unmounted images. You point to your ebay store and it sure looks like every image you have there is presented like it is matted and framed.

lee\c

kjsphoto · Jun 21, 2006

Lee read the description then get back to me. Reading does wonderful thing as you can learn something...

chiller · Jun 21, 2006

lee said:
Kevin,

I am amused by your stance on selling unmounted images. You point to your ebay store and it sure looks like every image you have there is presented like it is matted and framed.

lee\c

Lee prints in a "cyber" environment are often presented in a presentation manner that will allow the prospective customer the opportunity to previsualise what the print may look like if they at some stage decide to personalise the image.

After your comments I visited the KJS photo site on ebay to see what you were talking about. Perhaps you need to reconsider the manner of your comment to Kevin.

On the KJS ebay photo site it is very clear the presentation is just that -- presentation.

"All images presented by KJS Photography on ebay whether store or auction are sold unframed."

Donald I wish you all success in your new venture.

maxby · Jun 21, 2006

Thanks for all the imput guys. I really enjoy reading this thread. Just out of curiousity, what are the sizes of prints that sell well?

Jim Jones · Jun 21, 2006

grahamp said:
. . . Try Dick Blick (http://www.dickblick.com) for plain white mats and mounts in blanks and standard sizes. They have their house brand in 6-packs at a good price. Essentially bulk packaged Neilsen acid-free mats. . .
.

Blick's house brand precut mats & mounts are about as cheap as cutting them myself with 100% rag board. Nielson mats are considerably higher. Since cutting a mat with primative equipment takes only a few minutes, and can be done to any custom size, I'll probably continue doing so.

Blick is a good source of other material of interest to some APUG tinkerers. For example, they sell Strathmore Aquarius watercolor paper. It is a fairly thin, but rather rigid, paper that should make good stiffeners for bellows. Black liquid artist's acrylic paint is great for patching pinholes in bellows and countless other uses. Going through a catalog like Blick's suggests many things to photographers.

Jim Jones · Jun 21, 2006

Donald Qualls said:
I think I'm reaching the stage of being ready to try to sell some prints -- need to get some VC fiber paper and a print washer, but that's within reach, just about.

So -- do "naked" prints actually sell? If not, how much do I need to put into a print to make it saleable?

Tray washing saves water and can be just as archival. It does take time, though. It adds little time to a long printing session.

People sell "naked" prints online, and even at arts & crafts fairs. It's apparently even easier to sell prints of naked subjects online, but that belongs in another thread. You'll learn more and learn it faster by selling face to face to buyers. I strongly recommend it if you can do so inexpensively. Less investment in products and time is required for online sales. It's not a great gamble.

You can wait until you are perfectly ready to sell, or you can start selling soon and approach perfection more rapidly. Go for it. Look for venues that don't require elegant displays or high booth costs. Put photos up where people will become familiar with them - and with you. I've found the local arts & crafts fair to be much better for sales, though.

The last time I calculated the cost of archivally mounting, matting, and framing an 11x14 print in a 16x20 frame similar to a Nielson was about $22, not allowing for my labor. With experience it doesn't take long. There will be some start-up costs. If you analyze what has to be done to present a print, and how it can be done without buying unnecessary equipment, the only big initial cost may be a dry mount press. Consider this: wet mounted prints from 100 years ago often still look great. A dry mount press is more of a convenience than a necessity.

If you are like many of us, you have more power between your ears than in the bank. What you haven't learned yet, someone on APUG has. We've learned from you. Ask us; someone can answer, and then the rest of us will learn, too. Specific questions get specific answers.

c6h6o3 · Jun 21, 2006

JBrunner said:
About the best advice I can give beyond that, is a kind admonishment to get started, and last, but not least- once you set a price, never back it down.

The good news is that as a creative artist you can do what you want to. I compose the image on the groundglass, I print the photograph and it looks like I want it to look. Complete liberty.

The bad news is that once I attempt to sell it I am subject to the tyranny of the marketplace just as is any business transaction. Sometimes you have to beat the bushes in order to drum up a little trade. Sometimes you have to sweeten the pot in order to push a prospective purchaser over to your side of the fence he is straddling.

A recent experience of mine which may prove instructive:

I am new to all this, too. I recently helped organize a show of Azo prints at Visarts in Rockville in which I was one of the artists represented. I put together the pricing for the show, but forgot to ask the photographers whether their quoted prices had taken into account the 40% commission the gallery would take of all sales. Only one of the 5 photographers had stated his policy in the quote. I therefore marked up the photographs to cover the commission. Almost nothing sold. I had priced them beyond the tipping point.

Then we shipped the show to the Paul Paletti Gallery in Louisville, Ky. where it was up for two months. In the hands of an experienced dealer everybody sold at least one print individually and Paletti negotiated a sale of 8 prints out of the show to a major collection at the University. Not only is the money welcome to each of us but it does wonders for our resumes, since we can now cite that we're represented in the University's Photo Archives. In order to close the deal he had to compromise on the price. He was willing to eat the difference out of his commission, but we're all so delighted with the deal that we insist he keep his full percentage even at the reduced prices. Would we rather he'd "never back it down, once he'd set the price"? You've got to be kidding.

I can't imagine what such bluster as "once you set a price, never back it down" is meant to accomplish, but I can tell you from experience that it will often guarantee that your prints will not sell at all. Sometimes you gotta deal to get paid. So deal, and get paid.

Stoo Batchelor · Jun 21, 2006

kjsphoto said:
kjsphoto said:

Lee read the description then get back to me. Reading does wonderful thing as you can learn something...

Click to expand...

Yet another thread ruined by needless hotheadidness!!!

What the Hells happening with you Guys over there? Are we not all here for the same reason?

Jesus, take a chill pill Dudes.

lee · Jun 21, 2006

Kevin,

the print I clicked on said it was matted. I think putting a frame around the matted image is misleading. You can do what you want but in my opinion, you are not telling the whole story. If I have to read the small print I am not too interested in the image. Just my two cents. If you want to get hot about it not a problem.

lee\c

lee · Jun 21, 2006

So Chiller, you said, "Lee prints in a "cyber" environment are often presented in a presentation manner that will allow the prospective customer the opportunity to previsualise what the print may look like if they at some stage decide to personalise the image."

wasnt that what we were talking about, "Presentation"? That is what I was talking about.

lee\c

B&Wenthusiast · Jun 21, 2006

loose v. mounted prints

We sell to a specialty group - belly dancers. They decided early on that they wanted loose prints so they could buy more (the costumes/jewelry/etc cost so much they don't have much $$ for the pictures). When they buy a certain amount of prints, we give them a really nice binder to put them in. I forget the name of the binder but we get them at the camera shop. We give discounts, also, so the artist will be remembered and sought after (only been in business a year, but it's worth while). These binders are good for presentation, too, but lately we are putting the pictures on the computer and running the computer. Easier to carry around! The "d" word is good for something (only for e-pictures). Thanks for all the great comments.

kjsphoto · Jun 21, 2006

lee said:
Kevin,

the print I clicked on said it was matted. I think putting a frame around the matted image is misleading. You can do what you want but in my opinion, you are not telling the whole story. If I have to read the small print I am not too interested in the image. Just my two cents. If you want to get hot about it not a problem.

lee\c

First I didnt ask for your two cents and secondly it says in plain text there are no frames and it is not in small print, it is actually in BOLD. The only thing misleading is what you are saying trying to make me look like a liar, which I do not appreciate at all. If you cant read the text or do nto want to well then, that is not my problem as all my listing have the text clearing stating frames are not included.

Yeah of course I am getting hot especially when you sit here and call me a liar. None of my listings are misleading as the text tells you exactly what you are getting.

Completely irritated...

lee · Jun 21, 2006

Kevin,

sorry if you seem to mistakenly think I called you a liar. I did no such thing. you can think what you want as can I. I dont see eye to eye with that bold thing. I think you are very childish and showing how hot headed you can be. Mayby instead of being completely irritated you might spend some time considering you might be wrong.

lee\c

kjsphoto · Jun 21, 2006

think you are very childish
[/QOTE]
No I'm not you are, my dad is bigger than your dad.

Grow up and go shill somewhere else. You play such childish games. I have an idea Lee, go sell some prints and work in the darkroom that would be time much better spent.

Dave Parker · Jun 21, 2006

I looked at the ad's and I was a bit confused as well, I don't think anyone is calling anyone a liar, but there was mention of "loose" prints and then I look at the listing and is shows a framed and a matt on the image...and then you look farther down and is does state, it is not framed, but I am still confused, if I purchase a print, would it come matted?

Just wondering.

R.

lee · Jun 21, 2006

Ok Kevin,

please consider this conversation closed and remember when you had all those questions about photography last year? Who answered them? Now you are the expert I bow to your superior knowledge.

lee\c

kjsphoto · Jun 21, 2006

Right Lee you are so great and you are so knowledgeable. You make Ansels Adams look like an idiot with you greatness.

Hmm, last year dude I do nt obelive I asked much abotu photography , as I didnt even use the camera due to the car accident. The year before most likely, but I asked a lot of people question so dont flatter yoruself and by the way alot of what you said was wrong anyway, than kgoodness I didnt really take your great teachign to heart or I woudl have been screwed. I found out by reading books that the things you told, were just wrong, completley wrong.

So really in all respect the answer you gave me were absolutely useless.

So if that makes me an expert I thank you for the compliment.

Oh by the way, next time you need some correct information on how to do thing the proper way, I will only charge you a small fee so to make sure you dont have to make anymore mistake wasting film and time.

After all I am an expert now

kjsphoto · Jun 21, 2006

Roxi331 said:
I looked at the ad's and I was a bit confused as well, I don't think anyone is calling anyone a liar, but there was mention of "loose" prints and then I look at the listing and is shows a framed and a matt on the image...and then you look farther down and is does state, it is not framed, but I am still confused, if I purchase a print, would it come matted?

Just wondering.

R.

Really, it looks like you didnt read it either. It is a shame how no one can read a listing. Here, let me quote it for you with a cut and paste;

All images presented by KJS Photography on ebay whether store or auction are sold unframed.

I am proud to introduce the new open edition series. These prints are completely separate from my limited edition prints, but are of the same high quality that many have come to expect. These open edition prints are traditional hand printed gelatin silver prints that are signed, titled and dated on the verso.These prints are not numbered, matted or mounted. A matting service for the open edition prints is available in my ebay store under open editions.
-----------------------

I dont think it gets much easier to understnad than that, unless of course you cant read.

blansky · Jun 21, 2006

As with any product, it can sell at Walmart or it can sell at an upscale place. Packaging is a big part of the more upscale environment. You charge more, you create a 'mystique", if you will and you go on from there.

However you can also do the volume trade and sell a whole bunch of prints very cheaply and not as well presented.

You have to make those marketing choices.

Neither is right or wrong. Many people have made a lot more money selling cheaply and in high volume than they would have going the high end route.

It's all about the choices you make.

Michael

Dave Parker · Jun 21, 2006

Okay, sorry to offend you, but I am cutting and pasting this from YOUR listing...

" This print is signed, dated and numbered on the mount, and will also include a document of authenticity from the artist. This print was processed for archival standards and mounted/overmatted on 13 x 15, 4ply, Acid-Free Museum Board."

If case your wondering it is your listing with the number of for "Siesta Lake"

I was just confused, I was actually thinking about purchasing some of your prints and wanted to clarify, but I think I will pass for the time being, I was just confused by your wording, and normally I can read pretty good....in addition in the top of the listing where all of the particulars are listed, you also have it listed as matted...

Sorry you are so sensitive to questions from your perspective buyers..

Good luck.

R.

R.

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 21, 2006

Boys boys boys boys boys....

if we're going to get into a pissing match, at least aim it somewhere, and don't get it all over each other's shoes.

Lee, btw - I can't wait to get my print of "La puerta de la comida mision concepcion". Paypal en route.

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